006: Defeat Doubt with Dean Karrel

In this episode, the former Senior Vice President of Sales at Wiley Publishing, Dean Karrel, is going to help you defeat self doubt. Step outside your usual engineering department lens and learn from one of the most sincere coaches in the business.

Dean has carried the same note in his wallet for more than 30 years. A note that carried him through tough times, and served as the fuel he needed when motivation to do hard things was wearing thin. Discover what that note said, and why it matters for you today.

You don’t need to be in sales to need what Dean has to offer. Every engineer I know will benefit from this conversation, and I want to see you win!  Watch or listen below.


The Happy Engineer Podcast




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Do not underestimate the power and the value of a simple, courageous affirmation that you hold and keep with you all the time. For me, I have a small trinket in my pocket. It’s a cross made from the wood of an olive tree from the Biblical holy land, Israel. And on it, engraved, is the word COURAGE. It keeps me grounded every single day when I see that word. 

Courage. It reminds me of who I am, why I’m here, and why the struggles in life are worth it. 

Our guest in this episode, Dean Karrel, got out a note from decades ago that he’s been carrying with him this entire time. Listen to our conversation to hear what it says… All I can say is that I love it. I’ve got a few things in my life that I’ve had a long time, but nothing quite like Dean. Certainly not for that long! Dean’s had that in his pocket as long as I’ve been alive, which is absolutely awesome. He will show you how he overcame self-doubt and achieved incredible success.

Dean’s philosophy for success is built on the simple, little things that most people know how to do, but don’t. If you haven’t already purchased a copy of Dean’s book, Mastering the Basics, go get one at the link below. But right at the beginning of the book on page 17 is one page of Dean’s philosophy.

  • One, be good to people. 
  • Two, smile, and say hi. 
  • Three, have a good work ethic. 
  • Four, send thank you notes. 
  • Five, always be learning.
  • Six, confidence – believe in yourself. 
  • Seven, integrity and character. 
  • Eight, be authentic, be genuine. 
  • Nine, planning and preparation. 
  • Ten, know your priorities. Family comes first, and focus on what really matters.

The Lifestyle Engineering Blueprint, our proven system that we use in our coaching programs here at OACO, aligns beautifully with all ten of these principles.

If you have been around me, Zach White, and OACO at all, you heard me say that we must implement what we know. Knowledge without action won’t change your life. It has no power. So, what are you doing about it? What steps are you taking to change your life? Use Dean’s ten principles to lead you to specific steps. 

It’s being specific that helps you create movement. Don’t say “I’ll be more authentic.” Say instead, “I am going to tell Mary the truth about how her actions made me feel in that meeting yesterday.” Understand your blind spots and get the help from a coach, mentor or peer on what you need to do to take action and move forward. And it forces you to get out of your comfort zone, which is essential because there is no growth in the comfort zone.

Take action today. You want to be happier, what are you doing about it? You want to get promoted, what are you doing about it? You want to change industries, what are you doing about it? You want to move from engineering, into marketing, what are you doing about it? In case you couldn’t tell, this episode is going to push you into action!

Previous Episode 5: Find Perfect Fit with Kate Terrell




Dean Karrel is a career development coach, sales trainer, and the instructor of thirteen courses with over 850,000 views available on LinkedIn Learning. He has been in senior leadership positions for more than three decades with major global publishing companies, including 22 years at Wiley where he was senior vice president of sales.  He is the author of Mastering the Basics: Simple Lessons for Achieving Success in Business.





Please note the full transcript is 90-95% accuracy. Reference the podcast audio to confirm exact quotations.

Zach White: [00:00:00] Welcome back engineers. It’s awesome to be with you. And I’m here with my good friend, Dean Karrel and Dean is a career development coach sales trainer, instructor of 13 courses with over 850,000 views. Those are available on LinkedIn learning. Go check those out. Dean’s been in senior leadership positions for more than three decades.

[00:00:35] I want to tell you how old I am, but that’s pretty impressive. With major global publishing companies, including 22 years at Wiley, where he was senior vice president of sales. He’s the author of mastering the basics. Simple lessons for achieving success in business. I’ve got my copy in my hand right here.

Expand to Read Full Transcript

[00:00:54] And I can tell you from going through this, it’s a fantastic book. Every engineer listening needs to get a copy of mastering the basics. Dean, thank you so much for making time to be with us today.

[00:01:05] Dean Karrel: [00:01:05] You bet Zach, it’s great to be with you. And you know, for the engineers, I working at Wiley what a great engineering publishing company, uh, that is.

[00:01:12] And so, uh, I’m familiar with the engineers and the topic. And so again, it’s great to be with you today.

[00:01:18] Zach White: [00:01:18] Absolutely. Hey, Wiley has a significant presence on my bookshelf. That’s for sure. So Dean, one of the things I would love to start with jumping into date, you have Dean’s philosophy right at the front of your book.

[00:01:33] And I love it because simplicity is one of my core values and this idea of focusing on simple principles. And values as a way to live and to achieve success. And one of them in particular stood out to me, it’s number four on your list. And it’s saying. Thank you notes. And if my mom hears this episode, she’s going to say, son, I told you this a long time ago, she’s going to be so thrilled.

[00:02:02] Send thank you notes. It feels kind of old school. It’s so simple, but like just, just tell me Dean, you’ve been doing. 30 plus years. Why send thank you notes? How did that get on the

[00:02:13] Dean Karrel: [00:02:13] list? You know what it is, it is a real simple thing and it is the old school, but I, I’ve got to tell you, you know, through the years I’ve sent, thank you notes to everybody.

[00:02:21] Or I send a follow-up note to everybody and the impression that it makes, because a lot of people don’t do it. Always remembered and, and you reach out to somebody, you, thanks, Zach, for letting me up here on your podcast today, or, or thanks Dean for reaching out and sending me a book. It’s amazing how it stands out and , uh, you’re being sincere and it, all it takes is a stamp and a little letter and a, the old fashioned way.

[00:02:46] And , uh, Uh, you know, through the years, I can’t tell you how many times people have said to me, Dean, I still have your note. You sent to me, you know, 30 plus years ago or 20 years ago or whatever. It’s a, it’s a positive impression. That’s very simple to do.

[00:02:58] Zach White: [00:02:58] So I love the sincerity comment of that. And Dan you’re one of the most sincere guys I’ve ever met and talked to, and it comes through in the way you communicate.

[00:03:06] So, so on this point and engineer listening, all right, Dean I’ll I’ll send a thank you note. Is it a handwritten thing? Is it a , uh, an email? How do you execute that in this digital age we live in today? Well, I think,

[00:03:17] Dean Karrel: [00:03:17] you know, the old. It was a, a stamp and a letter. And I still do that occasionally, but even the simplest form is to send an email.

[00:03:24] And , uh, it’s just a two line note saying, Hey, thanks so much, Zach, for letting me be here today or, or thanks Joe or Sally for letting me participate in your, your event or thank you for the good work. It is recognizing somebody. Uh, for the actions that they’ve done and showing your appreciation. And again, that’s not rocket science, it’s not, you don’t need an MBA for that, or an advanced degree from Michigan to get to understand that.

[00:03:49]Um, and it’s just showing sincerity. So I still send the personal letters by mail the old fashioned way, but I also do email too. It’s whatever form works best for you.

[00:04:01] Zach White: [00:04:01] So let’s zoom out. We’re in this like micro slice of success and sending thank you notes. And if somebody who doesn’t know you and your background and all of the amazing accomplishments, they might say like, wow, this is, this is the golden nugget.

[00:04:15] And like, like, but, but tell me, Dean when you really think about success over the arc of your 30 years, making it to the senior vice president level coaching, you know, thousands of leaders around the world, What is it about these small moments? Things like a thank you note, you know, how does that impact someone on the long arc of big success?

[00:04:36]You know, it feels like such a small thing. Just kind of tell us more about the mindset of success.

[00:04:42] Dean Karrel: [00:04:42] Well, I think these are things we learned throughout our career and maybe early on, we have these grandiose plans, so we have to do this and that, or, or , uh, reach to higher levels than , uh, they may be that we’re capable of.

[00:04:53] And it’s, it’s, I believe it’s, it’s recognizing that enhancing the skills that we all have and how we can do things better and believing in our abilities. And I feel that’s so critically important. So when you look at the, the, the idea of success, And I think this is a good year to look at it where we all had a chance to reevaluate what so success really means to all of us.

[00:05:14]Um, you know, we all went through the issues of the past year. Well, how do we focus on what really matters? So to the priorities of our life, our families, our religion wealth, or whatever it might be. And, and just focusing on that it’s success for us personally, which is different for every.

[00:05:31] Zach White: [00:05:31] So for the engineer, listening to this, we’re recording it in may of 2021 coming off of, you know, 12 plus months of an incredibly disruptive time in the world with COVID.

[00:05:42] And so you made a statement in there though, Dean believing, believing in my abilities. Yeah. W w what is the journey to increasing your own belief in yourself? This idea of confidence in a lot of engineers I’ve talked to in coach really struggle with confidence. And, you know, from the sales perspective, I mean, you can’t succeed in sales without that, that belief.

[00:06:09] So, so just tell us is. That journey to confidence like for the engineer listening.

[00:06:15] Dean Karrel: [00:06:15] I think it’s very important to realize that when we say that people are confident or where they have a beliefs in their abilities, and it’s never that way, a hundred percent of the time people often say my Dean, you’re very confident, your view.

[00:06:26]Uh, you seem very self-assured and , uh, but. Life is a rollercoaster of ups and downs, whether you’re an engineer, whether you’re in marketing, whether you’re in finance, where some days are really terrific and other days aren’t. And when I say believing in your abilities, it’s stepping back and saying to yourself, you know, what can I accomplish?

[00:06:44] And what are the goals and objectives that I have not worrying about the other person or what this other person has done, or how successful that other person’s career may be, or how much money they’re making it’s focusing on yourself. I didn’t learn that at 25. At 25, I was trying to act like this person or be like that person.

[00:07:03] And then I realized at the end of the day, I just need to be myself and working on the buildings and skills that I have and enhance them that takes time to develop. And it’s also, again, recognizing that you’re going to have some days when you’re really confident everything’s going well, it puts, you’re also going to have some days when, Ooh, this is a tough job.

[00:07:23] Again. I don’t care what profession.

[00:07:26] Zach White: [00:07:26] You’re you’re so polished and, and excellent at what you do. It’s hard for me to imagine Dean on a not confident day, like take us back. What what’s one of those stories or moments. During your career where you were at the bottom end of your own personal spectrum when it comes to confidence?

[00:07:43] Well, I wasn’t

[00:07:43] Dean Karrel: [00:07:43] playing, I wasn’t planning on this question, but it’s sort of interesting. I had my wallet with me. So I’m just sharing with you a, I graduated from college. I thought I was going to be a sports broadcaster. I went to school in Ohio. I was the voice of Ohio Wesleyan, battling bishops, you know, you know, the 2200, uh, School.

[00:08:02] And I was the, uh, the voice of football and basketball. I thought I was going to be broadcasting. And then I realized that there were 10,000 people are a lot better than me. I get a job in the publishing industry as a sales person, it’s a, I’d get a territory and upstate New York. I had never heard of lake effect snow.

[00:08:18] You know, you’re from Michigan to what the Michigan, where you’re from. I grew up in Connecticut. Never heard of it. It’s snowing like crazy. I don’t know where my future is going. And what’s, and I wrote down a little note. So this is actually something I keep in my mind. And I’ve had it there all of these years.

[00:08:34] And it says, remember this date wasn’t too good. Come on Dean make it. So this is when I was 23 years old and this has been in my wallet all of these years. And every once in a while, I referred to it in my thirties. I’ve referred to it every once in a while at my forties. As you know, I changed my career six years ago, I got a great job, senior vice president of sales of a big company.

[00:08:57] I said, I want to do something different. Well, I had a few moments where I said to myself, what the heck did I just do? And I referred to that. And it, it, it’s a, it’s a real, you know, genuine and authentic way to saying to people that, yes , I’m, I’m pretty happy with myself, but that means I still have moments of self doubt and I wonder what my next steps are going to be.

[00:09:18] And , uh, so it’s showing to yourself that, that you can come around and go back in the right direction. Again,

[00:09:26] Zach White: [00:09:26] that’s an amazing thing to keep in your pocket. I mean, come on, dude. Make it. Yeah, I think that’s such a simple, powerful phrase. I know the engineer listening to this can relate to those models. Of self doubt and I can relate Danielle.

[00:09:41] You’ll appreciate this moment in my journey. When I also left a really successful career and a growing career at Whirlpool corporation to start awake, go and begin coaching engineers and do this work full time. There was a time at the beginning of this journey. Uh, you know, success was not happening at the pace.

[00:10:01] You know, my perfect engineered straight line growth plan was designed to work out and I caught myself one evening in a row. Uh, you know, just a low place of uncertainty where someone had uh, you know, joined one of my coaching programs, but then, you know, had a, an awareness of their finances and said, oh no, this isn’t going to work.

[00:10:21] And they ask for a refund and I was so discouraged because I had to refund their money and, you know, sales were precious at the time. Like every client really mattered and. 11:30 PM. Uh, I’m sitting on the laptop on my couch at home punk going away on LinkedIn messaging as many people as I could about what I was doing and asking if they needed any, any help with their engineering careers.

[00:10:47] In that moment, that wave of self doubt. And what am I thinking? What was I, this is a horrible decision to leave my company. And I think at one point in my, my mind, I had a vision of myself becoming like a ups truck driver on the third shift, like that happy overnight. Yeah. And just in a really low place and yeah.

[00:11:10] A lot of people would look at that and say, you know, whoa, that’s crazy. It’s very emotional. Or, you know, that’s not the Zack that I’ve coached with and met, like, where’s the conflict. But those moments happen. And so I just appreciate you sharing that Dean with somebody who’s experiencing that right now.

[00:11:28] What advice would you have for them? If they’re feeling that uncertainty, maybe they took a promotion. They’re feeling like an imposter. Maybe they changed industries and they went from being an expert to being the rookie again. What’s the first thing you would encourage them to do from that place,

[00:11:47] Dean Karrel: [00:11:47] you know, is in my coaching work.

[00:11:49] Now I probably hear that from everybody. And I think it’s, it’s okay to admit that you have some self doubt. You wonder if you’re the right person for that job? I don’t care whether you’re an entry-level engineer or the CEO of Whirlpool. You, if you start a new job, You’re going to have self doubt. And within that first 30 days, you’re going to be overwhelmed.

[00:12:10] You’re going to have that one day where it’s like, oh my gosh, why did I even take this job? I was fine where I was , uh, it takes 30 days to get used to a new job, 90 days, really to get settled in and six months to really get your sea legs. And it’s okay to raise your hand and ask for help. I can’t tell you how many times I say that.

[00:12:28] It’s okay to admit. I need some help And that’s something with, sometimes we’re conditioned to say I can power my way through it, especially certain professions. And from what I’m understanding, it’s certainly true in your profession as engineers, where you say, I can do this, I’ve got my master’s degree. I’ve got my advanced training.

[00:12:46] I’m going to find a way to get this done. Yeah. I think it takes greater courage and greater confidence, actually raise your hand and say, I need some help with this. And it’s also very important to say when you’re really feeling overwhelmed. Um, you know, this was self therapy for me know, years ago to write a note.

[00:13:06] What I really needed was professional help. It’s okay to ask for professional help and there’s no stigma involved with it. You know, in my era there probably was. So my therapy was writing a little note, but it is okay to ask for professional assistance and we should be doing those things. I did admitting those things.

[00:13:23]Zach White: [00:13:23] The, the timeline you just described. Dean. I just want to come back to that quickly because I hear a lot from engineers that, Hey, you know, this first 90 days I should be the expert and everything humming and execute my full strategy and make all these changes. And, you know, people get very ambitious about how quickly they ought to be able to.

[00:13:43]You know, fill in the blank, their vision of their impact. And I just heard you say it really takes six months just to get your sea legs and get really comfortable. I know that’s one of the chapters in your section, in your book. I remember that you want to take six months to get really comfortable. Why is it that we believe it can happen so fast, but the truth is the opposite.

[00:14:03] Dean Karrel: [00:14:03] You know where it is. I think we’re all so energized to start something new and we jump right in. We’re ready to go or ready to run, you know, it’s that old line. It’s, it’s, uh, it’s not a marathon. It’s not a sprint. It’s a marathon marathon, you know, it’s a little. There’s truth to that. And that’s why I’m a big believer in timelines.

[00:14:21] Dateline’s objectives for certain periods of time. You know, you can’t solve a complex issue, a complex problem overnight. You have to develop a timeline again. That’s certainly something you discuss in your industry is as engineers as how you go from point a to point B with a timeline and a project plan for getting things accomplished.

[00:14:41] That’s true for all professions, for sales and marketing it and finance, and I believe. Those that’s how you keep yourself focused on a timeline of things. How am I going to get something done this week? You know, again, from sales point of view, where my background is, I don’t think farther out than 18 months.

[00:14:57] Cause it’s like a fiscal year of 12 months. And then when you go into the next year of six months, I’m not worried about long-term five-year plans. That’s somebody else’s job. How do I get through the month, the quarter, the half year, year, and 18 months. So that’s how I keep things focused for myself. And I believe those are very helpful things.

[00:15:16] Again, no matter what profession you are.

[00:15:19] Zach White: [00:15:19] So Dean part of why I’m so excited that you’re here. And if the engineer lists things like this, this guy’s in sales, I’m an engineer. You know, why, why are we in this conversation? But I’m a big believer in coaching engineers. That part of the problem is we over index.

[00:15:34] In the, the left brain analytical problem solving strengths that we flex those muscles in school and grad school and, you know, everything that we do at work. And a lot of times the real barriers to career growth are in these other parts of our life. It’s in the communication skills, it’s in the ability to influence and create, you know, followership as a leader in the organization.

[00:15:59] And when I think of those. I think of sales, right? And so for the person listening, why, why can an engineer, why should an engineer pay any attention? So a conversation coming from the sales. Perspective that connect the dots for us?

[00:16:17] Dean Karrel: [00:16:17] Well, I think we’re all in sales and, and to all in varying degrees. I also think the world has changed dramatically where all departments, all functions need to know what other departments are doing.

[00:16:29] They used to be a day when I first got into business, there was the sales department here. There was engineering here, manufacturing here. Marketing over here and no one spoke to each other and everybody is the old line was that we were all in silos, right. And finance did their thing. And everybody had their own mission.

[00:16:48] The companies that are most successful, the companies that you see on the best places to work lists are the ones where. Engineers understanding what salespeople are doing. Finance people understand what marketers are doing , um, that may not agree on everything all the time. And that’s good and that’s healthy, but they understand.

[00:17:04] So as an engineer or as a marketer, you need to know that what the customer wants as an engineer, as a marketer. Our end result is to solve something for the customers that we work with. And the way you have to be able to do that is understand what everybody’s job functions are and how we can collaborate as work as a team.

[00:17:24] So it is communicating. It is being able to influence and show the best path to find the successful route for providing a solution to the customers and clients we work with.

[00:17:36] Zach White: [00:17:36] If I’m an engineer and I’m in sales , how, how does that actually look. Day-to-day Dane. Where would you say yo? Here’s a moment of sales.

[00:17:43] Here’s my. W where would I be applying that sales mindset in my day to day

[00:17:50] Dean Karrel: [00:17:50] career? Sometimes we overthink what sales is all about, you know, we’re so the perception of sales is, you know, Alec Baldwin and Glen Gary, Glen Ross always be closing or the Wolf of wall street, which I can’t stand. Those perceptions sales is communication.

[00:18:08] Yeah, and the best salespeople are good listeners. And so the best marketers are good listeners. The best engineers are good listeners. What do we need to do to solve a problem? So it’s asking good questions, salespeople ask good questions. They’re curious. They listen, they care, they solve problems. And , uh, especially in this day and age it’s then the salesperson is the air traffic controller for bringing all these departments together to get to work with the customer and the end.

[00:18:38] Zach White: [00:18:38] I think this is really important for the engineer listening. Like you do not accomplish anything in your organization alone, and to get the buy-in for your idea to influence that procurement person, to help you with a supplier who’s who’s lagging on your project to, you know, help the marketing team, understand the constraints around the design and the timelines and these like all of those interactions.

[00:19:04] Are moments where you can apply what Dean just described. Those are selling interactions. It’s not about the leads are weak. I’ll try to close. Yeah. Transactions with dollars transactions with needs to move the project to the finish line for your, your customer. And so if somebody wants to strengthen.

[00:19:24] This skillset, this sales skillset, not in a, you know, I want to go switch career paths, but I’m an engineer and I want to strengthen this team. W where would you recommend somebody to.

[00:19:35] Dean Karrel: [00:19:35] When was the last time you had a coffee or a lunch or a video call or a telephone call with a sales person and just talk, what they’re hearing in the marketplace.

[00:19:44] It starts with communication and it starts with this basic interaction. And it goes both ways. You know, they, they used to be the old squabbles of sales and marketing, not working together. And there were always the squabbles of, you know, who’s doing what, what job it is. And a lot of it, the root of it. We never understood what they did for a living both sides.

[00:20:03] So I don’t understand what engineers do and you don’t understand what salespeople do. Okay. Zach let’s have a coffee and talk about it. What are the main obstacles and opportunities you’re finding in your job and what are you seeing? And you should be asking the same thing of me. What are you hearing in the marketplace?

[00:20:20] Dean? What are buyers telling you? What are they saying about our company? What is the competition saying about our company? You could learn so much in a half an hour by just.

[00:20:31] Zach White: [00:20:31] I think this is brilliant. And I hear way too often that people don’t book a conversation like that because a, they don’t want to bother somebody or B.

[00:20:43] They don’t know what to say. Yeah, engineers are out there. Oh, that sounds great Dean, but I don’t know how to have that coffee chat. Can you just make it simple for esteem?

[00:20:54] Dean Karrel: [00:20:54] It’s asking you, what are you, what are you, what are you seeing in the marketplace? What are you hearing? You know, it’s, it’s a, what is the toughest part of your job?

[00:21:00] Zack, you know, as an engineer, what is, what are you, what are you finding? What are the obstacles you’re hearing in the business that drive you? Crazy? Dean how’s how’s business. What are you hearing? How was, how was it changed from when you first got into business? Um, just basic conversation. Think of it as talking with your neighbor or talking with a relative, you know, at Thanksgiving, it’s a , uh, you know, what are the, what are the best parts of your job?

[00:21:23] And believe me, salespeople or engineers or marketers, we happy to tell you

[00:21:27] Zach White: [00:21:27] that’s right. I, so, you know, grab one or two of these questions, Dane just described, start the conversation and then just. Yeah, listen and get curious, you know, engineers we’re naturally curious. So just be yourself in that way. Be curious, listen, ask questions and, and enjoy it.

[00:21:44]Don’t don’t put this pressure on yourself to have a certain thing. So I think this is an awesome strategy. Every engineer listening needs to book a coffee, date virtual, or face-to-face with a salesperson today. Don’t don’t miss the opportunity. You’re you listen to this right now. Pause, pause the podcast and go invite somebody right now.

[00:22:01] Great

[00:22:01] Dean Karrel: [00:22:01] advice that you just gave because sometimes we think of this. I gotta call 20 people. No, no, no, no, no. First find one. Just start with the first person it’s like networking. We think of networking. We got to meet 50 people. No, no, no, no. What you’re trying to do is just meet one person, connect with one person to say, you know what?

[00:22:19] I’m trying to learn a little bit more about the sales option. And what you’re experiencing with your job and in the marketplace. What is your impression of the engineering department? What are you hearing and believe me, you’ll find out a lot that will surprise you, but it’s with one person then.

[00:22:38] Zach White: [00:22:38] I love it.

[00:22:38] Start with one person. One leads to two leads to three, but keep it simple back to that. Very beginning Dean’s philosophy, simple principles. So Dean , you, you had incredible success making it, you know, senior vice-president there at Wiley and one of the things. I work with engineers on is mindset. What is the mindset that we need to bring foundationally that we can then apply skills and tactics and strategies on top of.

[00:23:07] I’d love to hear your perspective when someone is shifting in their career from, you know, an individual contributor role somewhere where I’m the kind of the, a player, the person getting all the work done. And then I move into a manager position. I’ve got a team underneath me for the first time. You know, that’s one of those big transitions in our careers.

[00:23:28] And then maybe the next one, even to like director or VP as well. Big shift in the scope and responsibility at either of those points. I’m curious for you. Be the mindsets that changed or the things you had to develop to be successful as you moved up that

[00:23:47] Dean Karrel: [00:23:47] ladder, it’s realizing it’s, it’s keeping your ego in check.

[00:23:51] And you know, sometimes when people get promoted, it’s like, oh, I got to act this way. I got to do this. I have to, you know, I have to manage, you know, leadership. Is helping guide people. It is not directing people. And these are basic lessons. Again, you can have four years of getting an MBA. You get an advanced degree in business and leadership and management, but at the end of the day, it’s how you’re working across the table with somebody to help them do their job better.

[00:24:16] And it’s recognizing that. You know what, yes, you got promoted, but you’re not the greatest thing in the world. You’ve have things to learn too. And it’s, and it’s working as a team to be successful, you know, some of the most difficult, so to speak leaders are ones who’ve never listened. It goes back to the basics of sales.

[00:24:33] Again, listening to your teams and it’s a, you get promoted. Well, there’s a learning curve. You’re not going to figure it out again in the first 30 days. So it’s listening and finding out what the pain points are of the team that if you’re managing and it’s asking a lot of questions, again, it goes back to all these basic principles

[00:24:56] Zach White: [00:24:56] guide.

[00:24:57] Direct you drew a really interesting distinction there. And I want to unpack that a little bit. What’s the difference between guiding somebody on your team and directing them? I mean, it’s called being a director, right? Isn’t that my goal? So

[00:25:14] Dean Karrel: [00:25:14] term, right? It’s like when you direct somebody or you’re really directing, you’re telling them what to do to me, it has an almost as a negative term, no one wants to be told what to do, what we want to be told.

[00:25:24] This is the opportunity for us. And here’s the route that we can look at to go to. So explore this avenue, explore this approach and come back to me with what you’ve learned when you direct, uh, you’re saying do this, and it has to be done this way, what you want to going back to the word collaboration and where people feel that they’re part of that team and part of that development and part of that growth.

[00:25:47]Um, you know, one of the things I’ve learned over the past few years in trying to work in the corporate world, Focused on the companies that I worked with.