018: Stereotypes and CTO’s with Sam Tam

[00:00:37] Sam: you for, thank you for connecting. It’s been. All right back at you, right? Like I remember that smile I’m remember that energy. It looks like you still got it. So this is we’re awesome to be here. Thanks for, thanks for having, 

[00:00:50] Zach: uh, here. You’re welcome.

[00:00:51] So we have to start with a story that many of the listeners here are going to potentially laugh at. So if you go back to the spring of my junior year at Purdue university west Lafayette boiler up for all the boiler makers out there. I had not yet lined up an internship for the summer, which all of the engineers remember how important it is to land those great internship companies, trying to beef the resume to get a good job and live the American dream.

[00:01:24] Right. So. I don’t have anything lined up for the summer. I have the kind of energy that this guy has. Next thing I know I’m at a, a dinner event with the Whirlpool folks. You invited me to some thing that night and the next day I’m in an interview. For an internship at Whirlpool. And so Sam, can you just, whatever you remember about meeting Zach, I think our listeners would love to hear how you remember that 

[00:01:52] Sam: situation, by the way, talk about traveling down memories, layman as you’re going through that story.

[00:01:57] Even for me, it’s just a lot of just emotions, a lot of just feelings coming back because it’s been it’s, it’s been a while. Right. And frankly speaking, I’m totally dating myself here, but I completely remember. You know, at these career fairs at these booths, I’m representing Whirlpool, you’re such a baby, you were in school and I’m like, who is this guy?

[00:02:17] Like, first of all, who are all these little kiddos running around here? Right. But I think for me, especially because I think at that point in time was recruiting for primarily engineering and manufacturing at Whirlpool. And that was my rope. Right. And for me, what really, really, really kind of sticks out when I’m talking to candidates, when I’m talking to the kids at school and so forth are very simple things like.

[00:02:36] Passion and Hughes the ASM, uh, just reading that positivity, good interpersonal skills as well, too. And so that’s why I latched onto you and people like yourself because you know, the truth of the matter is very stereotypical. Right? When you think about engineering stereotypes, you’re kind of thinking about. You know, more of those, uh, you don’t necessarily get that vibrant kind of like personality and you had that.

[00:03:00] So that’s why I remember sticking on you. I crazy and be like, who is that guy? And why is he not at Whirlpool? And one thing led to another. I was okay. Let’s have a quick conversation with this kid. See what’s going on? You nailed it. Good fun times. You’re a baby, but I love the energy. And then of course it was all about inviting you to different events, meeting more people.

[00:03:19] And I was pretty sure that people would see what I saw you in the first time. Right. Which again, for me, it was just that energy and I was right, right. I mean, when you eventually got to Whirlpool, I think ultimately speaking, if we fast forward a couple of years, you did your internship. Yes. Then you finally came on, but what made you stick out from most of the engineers and frankly speaking, most of the people was that energy, that ability to radiate that the ability to.

[00:03:43] Connect with people that positivity, great communication skills and so forth. That’s what made you, who you were. 

[00:03:50] Zach: So, first of all, thank you. And I also, one other little piece about this. I remember when you called to give me the office. That you specifically told me that you loved the fact that I was a ballroom dancer at Purdue 

[00:04:06] Sam: that’s so, well, by the way, what?

[00:04:09] Oh my God, what you, at some point teaching ballroom dancing. Yes. Yes. So I just thought that was the not straight. Which is very different, right. I was like, wow, I’ve never seen anyone do ballroom dance or have this type of extracurricular activity. And again, as an engineer and I keep reading that, but it’s just not as common.

[00:04:30] Right. And so that stuck out to me quite a bit. I was like, okay, this is cool. And I just happened to like dancing in general and just entertainment and theater and all that stuff. So that kind of caught onto me as well. 

[00:04:42] Zach: So let’s connect then who is Sam Tam and for the engineer listening, why do we care about your perspective here?

[00:04:49] Right. So Sam is currently VP of HR at visa of leading the Asia Pacific region. And Sam, tell us just a little bit about what you’re doing, the scope of what you’re doing there. 

[00:05:02] Sam: Absolutely. Thank you for that. Uh, so yeah, I just recently moved to Asia Pacific and more specifically Singapore. And my scope is I essentially lead what they call the HRBP function, HRBP organization at visa Asia Pacific.

[00:05:14] So at a super high level, if you think about HR, there are multiple facets. Are there multiple functions and disciplines within HR organization? Right. So you’ll have, let’s say. Compensation you’ll have benefits. You’ll have the talent organization and then you’ll have the HR BPS where frankly speaking, that’s where my passion is.

[00:05:33] So the HRBP is known as human resources, business partners are the folks, the internal HR folks who are working in partnering with leaders, the employees, and working on things such as leadership development, coaching engagement, uh, org, design, org effectiveness, all that stuff that is internal to an organization.

[00:05:53] So we partner in face-off with leaders in the organization for any HR related stuff. So that’s my, that’s my passion. So I lead the HRPP function within visa Asia. 

[00:06:03] Zach: So Sam is a very humble guy and I’ll say on his behalf that when it comes to talent development, finding great talent, developing great talent and helping people to break through in their careers, he’s got an incredible skill set.

[00:06:17] And so that’s why I’m so excited to hear your perspective on this. And I actually want to come back to the. The thing that popped up in that story over and over again, the idea of, for an engineer as an engineer, and there are real stereotypes and challenges and things that are faced in many cases, you’ll have truth behind them in different aspects.

[00:06:38] And somebody listening might be saying, okay, what if I don’t have that natural, bubbly, positive enthusiasm that Zach has? Does that mean I won’t get those results or. If I’m an introvert and this isn’t my natural style. What does that mean? Am I destined to not be successful in my career? If that’s something somebody might feel like, Hey, I’m not Zach.

[00:07:01] I’m not that person. What would you say? The truth versus how you have to navigate that. Just kind of talk to us to do with this whole as an engineer for an engineer considering engineering stereotypes. So 

[00:07:13] Sam: it’s still funny. And I was actually kind of mentioning the single sentences on purpose in the beginning because the truth of the matter is it is a bit stereotypical and there are a couple of things that play into that, right?

[00:07:22] The first of that plays into that just to be very Frank and very honest, Firstly, I pleased that it is me, right. Because of the fact that I tend to be also much more bubbly. And so like, I generally get attracted to that type of personality as well, too. Right. So that’s part of it. Having said that, to answer your question more specifically, if that doesn’t naturally come to you or you don’t necessarily generally have those traits and characteristics that by no means, right, is the end of the world for you.

[00:07:51] It’s just. Of many traits that somebody could have that could attract different types of recruiters, different types of organizations to that individual. A little bit of background additional to that is I went and lived in Silicon valley for about four years after Whirlpool XFL left USEC. And to me, that was so fascinating because talk about going into an environment.

[00:08:13] Of all sorts of engineers coming from different walks of life, with different personalities, with different approaches, different styles, and yet all of them extremely successful. Well, I shouldn’t say all of them, but a lot of them write extremely stressful in different ways. And that’s when for me it was the bigger, humble, and they’re like, oh yeah, no, you don’t necessarily need.

[00:08:36] Specific personality trait to be successful, right? There are many different ways of going about it. And it’s all about, at least what I noticed when I was in, when I was at San Francisco is really, you know, finding that passion, what you want to do going after it prioritize by the way. That’s one of the biggest things in my, in my life.

[00:08:55] Personally, and from a work standpoint. So you may hear me say that quite often, which is just prioritizing and finding out what’s important for you and then kind of going for that and using your positives to make a difference. So you may not be the gregarious, outgoing, extroverted type, but that does not mean that you don’t have other things that are going for you in a major way.

[00:09:17] Use those to your advantage, right. And find companies and find individuals that actually validate. You know, so you can take advantage of that 

[00:09:26] Zach: across those different personality types, different approaches that you’ve seen. Many of them are extremely successful going about it, different ways. Have you found any through line?

[00:09:39] Any common traits that engineers, whether they’re the outgoing, gregarious type or they’re the one who never says a word, but when they do, he listens, what’s the connecting line of those really successful engineers. 

[00:09:55] Sam: Th there are a couple of themes, right? From a, from a connecting line standpoint. One of them I already mentioned, which is passion for what they do, whether you’re an extrovert or not, whether you are a talker or not, the passion actually comes through.

[00:10:08] Once you start entering a conversation or discussing a specific project that you’re working on and so forth. So that’s. The passion, I would say the other one. And again, this may be a little bit stereotypical, but what I’ve seen come across as I’m talking to engineers is there’s a lot of smart man. I mean, I’m so jealous because I find engineers, one of the smartest people in the world, right.

[00:10:30] And the ability to just be analytical, problem, solve really complex ideas and make it into something very easy. Just that intelligence and those smarts, uh, is key for me. I would say another one is just having really good communication skills. Now. Unfortunately, communication skills is a very broad term, just like the leadership presence.

[00:10:53] Let’s say, you know, stuff like that. So if I were to break that down, when I say communication skills, I’m talking about the ability to be just naturally concise, but just very specific deliberate. No. What you want to say and get that point across in a very deliberate manner, right? So that you a. Over confusing people, you know, you’re using like 11 engineering stereotypes and jargon or being super complex, but also you have the ability to take complex ideas or problems and just break it down, right.

[00:11:24] In a very simple metaphor. The average person to understand what you have to recognize is I think engineers are probably some of the smartest people in the world, much smarter than, you know, a lot of us business folks. Right. And we don’t necessarily get all the technical details. So if you’re able to help us understand that in an easy way, Huge huge, huge winner.

[00:11:45] Right. And so that’s also one of the common threads that I see when I see successful engineers. So is that passionate? Is that communication skill and there’s that intellect and an ability to communicate ideas in a, in a concise way. This 

[00:11:58] Zach: is one of the things that’s really powerful and what you just said, a theme I see with my clients a lot, Sam, and I think this connects to what you just talked about with communication skills.

[00:12:07] There’s an idea in technology that there is simplicity on the near side of complexity. And then there’s the simplicity on the far side of complexity, which would be like your iPhone. You know, we look at that and say, it’s so simple to use it’s so. But in fact, it’s an incredibly complex system that has moved through complexity to a place of beautiful simplicity on the other side versus something that is simple.

[00:12:33] That is in fact very simple. That there’s nothing to it. It’s just a lever for example. Well, in communication, what I share with my clients is there’s simple communication on the near side of intelligence and there’s simple communication on the far side of intelligence and most engineers get. In the middle, very intelligent.

[00:12:53] And they communicate like an intelligent person and the true intelligence. It comes on the other side of that when you can then take that brilliance, but bring it right back down to the fifth grade level and say it again. That’s the way I think about that. 

[00:13:11] Sam: You know, that I love the way you said that I may have to copy you because that is so, so, so spot on coming from the stem world, let’s be honest.

[00:13:18] You folks have very, very, can be very technical, right, and deal with very complicated. If you are able to take those complex ideas, problems, issues, whatever it may be, and kind of bring it down to that fifth grade level. For anyone, people will love you for, it will love you for it because it doesn’t matter is we’re not that we’re not some folks, right.

[00:13:39] Are not that complex or not that intelligent if you will. Right. And so the ability to kind of understand those problems and break it down, it’s just, it’s pure gold. It’s magic. Being an HR will sit in a lot of talent discussions, leadership conversations. And what I mean by talent discussions is, you know, we’ll get the leadership team together.

[00:13:58] We will look at all of our talent in the organization. We’ll look at the population and then we’ll start taking a look at who are our, you know, super technical folks where a leader. And the reason we do that is because we try to understand how we want to invest in these individuals. Right. We don’t necessarily do that just to kind of segregate people.

[00:14:13] We just say, okay, this guy’s a technical person, you know, and wants to be kind of more in a technical role and does not want to be a people manager. Let’s make sure we’re investing them in the right way versus kind of throwing leadership courses at them in leadership activities. Right? So that’s the main reason we do those type of meetings and conversations.

[00:14:28] And I can tell you one of the things that comes up quite frequently, just recently we were doing this is you will. We will be talking about a talent. And one of the things we’ll focus on quite a bit is communication, especially for these tech folks, right? Payments and visa. What most people don’t realize, going back to your analogy behind the scenes paying is very easy, where you pull out your credit card, tap it somewhere, or you give somebody swipes a card.

[00:14:54] And all of a sudden the money is at the worship. Right? What you don’t realize is all the technology that goes behind that. Misa transact something like 65,000 transactions per second around the world. We’re talking trillions of transactions a year here. And so the folks that are successful at visa, because again, we have a lot of people who work very technical are the ones who can walk into businesses.

[00:15:17] Right now technology meetings, business meetings, and are able to just educate literally like in a very simple way and explain to us what’s going on and why and how we can make things better. And so that our business leaders can actually understand. And that comes up a lot in talent discussion and say, yes, this person can do that.

[00:15:33] That person can do that. That person can do it well. And so we use that a lot of times to help. Develop people and some get them into leadership roles. If that’s the way you want to go and so forth. So it’s, it’s a, it’s a big thing. This whole communication piece itself, it’s 

[00:15:45] Zach: really big. If the engineer listening is saying, you know what, I’d love to improve in this area, what would you suggest is one of the first things you can do to develop that skill?

[00:15:57] If it’s not coming naturally to 

[00:16:00] Sam: wait. So this skill is not natural for everyone, right? We have this issue, have it on the business side. Right? So somebody that you would expect to be a great communicator, let’s say you work in sales, marketing, or whatever. Maybe it’s not natural. You’ll find a lot of people in those types of roles that are also not great communicators.

[00:16:18] And so to your question about what could these individuals do to try to improve across the board, both in stem engineering stereotypes and on the business side, I would say a few things practice. Such an old school term, but practice makes perfect. You have to be able to, they recognize that this is what you want to do.

[00:16:36] You want to do you want to improve on this and then try to practice it as much as possible? What I’ve done in the past. And what I’ve asked people to do is say, when you go into an audience, or if you have different colleagues, friends that you trust that are around you. Ask them to keep an eye out as soon as given and say, Hey, when I communicate this, or when I have this presentation or when I have this conversation, this individual, any you around, let me know how I did.

[00:17:02] Could I have done this a little bit better? How would you have done it? Did you understand the art of feedback is something frankly, that we do not take advantage enough? And that’s also another buzzword, which unfortunately has become a buzzword. But it’s probably one of the most critical development tools out there, which is ask for feedback, try to get people like your closest allies, your sponsors, people that you trust to give you feedback, to help you understand how you can get better to help you understand where things could have gone a little bit better.

[00:17:42] Try to get feedback on that as much as possible. I think the idea of getting a coach or a sponsor is huge because they will give you really objective perspective. And obviously their goal is to try to help you improve in a lot of different facets. But the challenge is the coach is not there with you all the time.

[00:17:59] Right? And so this is why I got to go back to the feedback pieces. Yes. The folks who were there, ask them to just help you understand how you did typically things that you’ll learn from the coach, right. Take one or two of those ideas and just practice those. Right. Whether it’s like. Don’t say this or simplify this, practice that for a little bit.

[00:18:19] So it becomes more natural for you and then go on to the next skillset and then go on to the next skill set. And you just keep building on that. I

[00:18:25] think

[00:18:25] Zach: about feedback that I love. I tell my clients you want to ask for feedback for yourself. Absolutely. But the other benefit of asking for feedback is the individual who you’re asking.

[00:18:37] It, it categorizes you as a person with a growth mindset and the desire to improve. Even if that’s happening subconsciously for them, they may not think about it that way. People want to promote and work with and be around. Those folks who are constantly seeking improvement. And when you’re the one who’s consistently showing up and asking for feedback, it moves you out of the average bucket into that elite bucket of people who are always getting better.

[00:19:07] And so it’s an unexpected benefit. You get the actual feedback, which is great. Plus. The personal branding aspect of that, of who you are inside the organization also gets, gets a boost, which is really nice.

[00:19:19] Sam: 100%. One of the things we look at to your point, Zach, you know, again, in these leaders, conversations is something I like to call it the coachability factor, right?

[00:19:27] Leaders love individuals and tell it that wants to be coached that are willing to be coached, um, and want to get better exactly. To your point. If you start asking for feedback, people will start thinking, oh, okay. This guy is highly coachable. Let’s focus on this individual and see how we can help improve

[00:19:46] Zach: coach.

[00:19:47] As a coach I’m of course, beaming with happiness, that, so Sam, before we went out of time, there’s one other topic I really wanted to hear your perspective on, because from your vantage point at the top of the organization and partnering with senior leaders in all functions, top level engineering leaders, CTO.

[00:20:08] Director level, you have had a lot of exposure and even been in the room when these promotion decisions and talent decisions are being made at extremely high levels of the organization. So what is the thing that you’ve seen that separates the people who come out of middle management and move through into these leading the enterprise roles and make that transition effectively versus the.

[00:20:33] It gets stuck in the middle band of the organization. What is the catalyst or the thing that, that elevates people who, if they want to be a VP one day or a CTO, one day start thinking about these kinds of things and avoiding engineering stereotypes.

[00:20:47] Sam: If I were to highlight maybe two or three things, the first thing is, and people forget this, unfortunately is execution, like get things done, do not come talk to me about promotions or moving forward.

[00:21:01] If you’re not able to really consistently, by the way, execute. Do your job and get things done. I mean, that is table stakes, and I know it’s table stakes, and I shouldn’t even be saying this right. But surprisingly, you’ll get people in the bucket where they’re thinking about next level, they’re thinking about future and so forth and they can hardly get their job done in the right way.

[00:21:22] So that’s the first thing again, table stakes, it’s the foundation of everything. And then I would say there are a few things that on top of that, which again, will help people kind of get to that next level. Some of these things we talked about, right. That feedback piece communication with your boss, with colleagues with leadership, do not be afraid of.

[00:21:43] Communicating and visualizing and telling folks what you want out of your rope, because you’ll be surprised how many times we will be in conversations or how many times we’ll be in these leadership discussions. And we won’t know, we won’t necessarily have an idea of what this engineer, what this individual wants to do.

[00:22:02] And part of the reason is. Because individuals not necessarily communicated it to us. Right. So being clear about what you are interested in now, here’s the deal. We don’t all necessarily know what we want to do when we grow up. So we don’t, we don’t want that, but at least we have an idea of what really kind of interests that, whether it’s in the short term, Midterm or some folks do actually know what they want to do in the group, but you have to be able to communicate that and articulate that to leadership because that’s the only way we can kind of help people get to that next level.

[00:22:32] You know, that’s a long-winded way of saying articulation of what your aspirations are with as against short-term or long-term and just really kind of planning and working towards that. Having a sponsor is also very helpful, which is very different from a mentor by the way. Right. So I think the mentor piece is key.

[00:22:49] The sponsor is. In many ways, even more key because you’ve got that person in these conversations really sponsoring you and really pushing you forward.

[00:22:57] Zach: So Sam, can you just pause and define for the listener? What do you, when you say sponsor what that really means versus.

[00:23:06] Sam: Yeah. Yeah. So the way we view a mentor is somebody who an individual, whether it’s in the organization or outside of the organization, who is just helping you with a lot of your day-to-day activities, uh, helping you navigate things within the organization, helping you, somebody that you can kind of come and talk to and seek advice.

[00:23:24] A lot of times, again, it could be within the organization outside of the organization, but just that partner and that advice seeker and. Sounding board, if you will, within the organization, again, it can be sorry within or outside the organization, but at least it’s in that ecosystem. A sponsor is very different.

[00:23:40] A sponsor is a person in the organization, usually at a higher level. But I suppose as the one who is advocating for you, In the right meetings, in the right conversations with the right people, being your voice for pushing you forward for to reach your goals and your objectives we could, which could be lateral moves, or it could be whatever it is.

[00:24:03] But a sponsor is like your biggest advocate and has a voice in the organization and it’s pushing you forward. Whereas a mentor is kind of more helping you on the game day stuff and being perfect.

[00:24:13] Zach: And so the question everybody’s asking. How do I get a sponsor? Oh

[00:24:18] Sam: yeah. Yep, yep. Yup. By the way, it’s it’s it’s not easy.

[00:24:23] Sometimes it comes naturally. I’ll be honest with you. Sometimes it comes naturally. As you are interacting with individuals in the organization, you will form a relationship with somebody who is higher in the organization and that relationship happens naturally. And all of a sudden, you get you’re entering into a sponsorship.

[00:24:39] That’s a small group of people, again happens naturally, but I tell you what, what we don’t do is ask for it. Surprisingly enough. People want to be sponsors. This is a crazy thing in organizations, you ask leaders, they want to be sponsors, especially if it’s good talent. Just ask for it and you’ll be shocked.

[00:25:01] We’ll be like, oh yeah, you want me to? Yeah, I’ll sponsor you. That’s great. Because eight you’re good. You get your stuff done. You deserve it by the way. Right. I can see XYZ in you. Yeah. I will absolutely sponsor you. But if you don’t ask people you’re missing out. If you don’t ask

[00:25:19] Zach: so huge, this is huge.

[00:25:21] Maybe Sam. Thanks. Thank you for saying that because, um, if I, if I say it, it comes with a certain level of believability, but this is the vice president of HR. Who’s been in a lot of rooms with a lot of leaders saying this. So engineers listening, pay attention. I see all the time, Sam, where an engineer won’t even ask.

[00:25:42] For a 15 minute conversation with a brand of engineer and another organization on LinkedIn, because they don’t want to bother somebody. And it’s like, whoa, we have to get out of this mindset that it’s going to interfere with other people’s lives to ask for things, or you don’t deserve to ask for things, or it’s impolite to ask for things, or like you need some sign from God to ask for things.

[00:26:05] If you want it and, and you have shown these qualities that Sam just mentioned, you’re executing. You have a vision, you have these things clear and you want to. Just go ask for it,

[00:26:20] Sam: save that. And it’s, it’s crazy. Like a lot of the things that everything that we talked about, it’s all coming back right. In this conversation that you’re seeing.

[00:26:29] So you’re spot on. Just ask for it. People just get out there, talk to folks, you know, don’t be shy. Your initial question about extrovert versus introvert. What happens in these cases is all the extroverted folks like myself, like you and so forth, feel comfortable going to ask for it, right. And rule. So that’s where we have a little bit of an edge, but I guess what I’m trying to say is reaching out to you, introverts to non Zach’s and non Sam’s is find a few minutes, find someone that you connect with as a leader in the organization.

[00:27:03] And we tell to them, talk to them, right? And so it goes back to the beginning of the conversation. It also goes back to what you were saying a little bit earlier. It kind of in the middle of our conversation, when you say, you know, some of those, what is that common thread? That one thing that helps people.

[00:27:17] That’s one of it as well, too. There’s a piece of sponsoring yourself in the, in the organization, right? For the 1% of us or 10% of us, whatever it is, we will get tapped on the shoulder, by individuals in the organization because of XYZ reasons who knows for the other 90%, you are going to have to sponsor yourself.

[00:27:36] You’re going to have to get out there and do one or two things that gets you out there that gets you kind of in front. Right? So again, going back to that middle conversation, What is one of those things that common thread sponsor yourself, get up.

[00:27:50] Zach: So good. Sam, I want to land the plane here and make sure you can get on with your day.

[00:27:54] And I know we respectful of your time. This has been so good though. You got a hundred more questions, but one of the things, one of the things. I say in every conversation we end this way, you know, great engineering, like great coaching has in common that the questions we ask lead and the answers follow, and we want to ask better questions in our engineering, and we want to ask better questions in our life.

[00:28:20] And so. For the engineer, listening to this conversation who wants that success, they want to be happy. They want to be fulfilled. They’re trying to figure all this out. What would be the one question that Sam Tam would lead them with to start into that journey today?

[00:28:39] Sam: Uh, I would have to go back Zack. And I think I mentioned this in the, in, you know, early in the conversation, the prioritization piece is, is pretty, it’s pretty important for me and it leads my life and it leads to success at work.

[00:28:53] So if I go back to that and I used that as my framework, if you are as my kind of foundation, The one question I would, the leading question would be, what am I trying to get at today? What’s my ultimate goal or objective with what I’m doing. Right. And that becomes my north star for all the actions that I take.

[00:29:18] If I wake up in the morning and say, What do I want to get out of the day-to-day? And then I plan around that, or if I walk into a meeting and I say, okay, what is my goal? And objective of this meeting, what am I trying to get out of? Like, if we walk out of this meeting, what are one or two, three things that I want them to walk out with?

[00:29:37] And I plan around that if I leave work or go out at night and turn meat, I’m trying to network or whatever it is, what is the one or two things that I’m trying to get out of this? And I lead with that, right? So it can be from like small things like that to. Bigger broader things. Right? So when I was at San Francisco or when I was at Google headquarters visa, it was, Hey, where do I want to be?

[00:29:57] What’s my ultimate goal for the next like two, three years is I want to be overseas leading a function within the HR organization. Okay. What am I going to do to. So that’s always going to be my leading question again for my personal life and for my professional life, by the way, part of that is, and I know I never talked about kind of my personal life, but it’s, you know, my partner, uh, Leland was obviously the, the rock and the center of my world.

[00:30:22] Part of my questions about her and for her sometimes is. What do I want to make sure I get out of the day with leeway today? Or how do I want to make sure that we’re meeting our personal objectives today? You know, yesterday I didn’t get to spend a lot of time with her, but today, you know what? I want to make sure that we do XYZ, whether it’s a nice dinner spend some time together or whatever it may be.

[00:30:42] Right. So just having one or two priorities. And asking what I want to get out of it. That’s my leading question all the

[00:30:49] Zach: time. That’s beautiful, man. What is that priority in this bucket? Whatever that may be for you. And I’ll tell you Sam practices, what he preaches here because in our email exchange, Seeking to get this conversation set up.

[00:31:04] There’s a point in the thread that made me laugh where you said, I think it was something close to things will never slow down. So let’s just, let’s just prioritize this and make it happen. And for you, it was that priority moment. Like, Hey, this, I need to make it a priority. And now we do it. So Sam, I can’t thank you enough for the time.

[00:31:23] If someone wants to learn more about you or get connected with you, is there any way someone could do that if they wanted to reach out or just say hi? Yes,

[00:31:31] Sam: yes, yes, yes. Yes. And by the way, I am all about meeting people. You know, I love hearing about people’s backgrounds connecting and so forth. So yeah, you can reach out to me, LinkedIn, you can find me on LinkedIn at, at Samuel.

[00:31:42] Tam Instagram. I’m a big Instagram follower in general. That’s a S K T a M seven a. So that’s an easy way to get out, get out to me or, you know what, shoot me an email. at gmail.com. Again, I’m all about connecting meeting folks and would love to grow into.

[00:31:59] Zach: Amazing. Well, we’ll put all of that in the show notes for folks, you can find this whole conversation and those [email protected] and check that out.

[00:32:07] But Sam, again, it’s been a true pleasure and I wish you a ton of success out there in Singapore and Asia Pacific. I know you’re the man for the job, so thanks again,

[00:32:16] Sam: Zach. This is a great way to start my morning. So I appreciate the time. Good connecting with you again, it’s been way too long and this is very energizing for me.

[00:32:24] Thanks. Thanks so much, Zach.