The Happy Engineer Podcast

026: Escape the Sunday Scaries with Camille Saltzman

Do you feel rushed? Like you’re in a hurry from the moment your feet hit the ground in the morning? Have you ever bolted upright in the middle of the night, panicked about a work assignment? Too many leaders are depressed at work.

In this episode, discover the layer underneath your conscious mind with Camille Saltzman. As a coach who specializes in subconscious transformation through RIM, Regenerated Images in Memory, Camille helps people unhappy in their career figure out their next move.

The barriers you face, the stress and anxiety, are not what you think they are.

Because you can’t THINK your way through the subconscious mind!

Camille is on a mission to get other people out of jobs that give them the Sunday scaries. She is the founder of Candid Space where she challenges the idea that you’re ever “too old” for a career change and believes it’s always worth it to go after the things that make you happy.

So press play and let’s chat… this is your subconscious speaking!


The Happy Engineer Podcast




Listen on Apple Podcasts // Spotify // Android // iHeartRadio



It begins in the morning. You’ve heard a million things about morning routines, and we’re not going to unpack all of my beliefs around mornings today. But what Camille highlighted, and I want you to ask yourself this question, what is a small thing that brings you joy? Not a complete overhaul of your life and routine. Not an extreme, take an ice bath and go to the gym for an hour and run a mile and dah, dah, dah, dah.  If you are depressed at work, it’s vital you stick with me here.

Just small, simple things that bring you joy. Here’s what I want you to do: First thing is to make a list of 10 of these small things that bring you joy.. I can’t tell you how many engineering leaders I sit down and work with, who when asked, “what are the things that spark joy in your life?” are only able to come up with one or two answers?

You’ve gotten so disconnected from the things that you love, from the things that spark joy, that are the little things. We anchor joy and enthusiasm in our life, around the big things. Going on that vacation to the Caribbean or a trip to Europe. Or completing a big project at work and having the success and recognition of a job well done.

Those are things worth celebrating, sure. But day-to-day life is made up of many small moments. We don’t go on big vacations every single week. We don’t complete huge milestones at work every single week, every single day. But you do have the opportunity to spark joy in the morning through the small things. So step one, make a list of 10 small things. Things that you can do in 10 minutes or less that bring you joy.

Then decide which one you will do tomorrow. Maybe you already have something like this in your morning routine. If so, that’s great. In that case, I want you to do one of two things. Either reconnect deeply to that joy, get present to it, remind yourself why you’re doing what you’re doing so you can really lean-in to that experience, or…

Mix it up! Run an experiment, try something new to spark joy and ease in your morning routine. I love that. Okay. Let’s come back to the subconscious mind. There is so much incredible research coming out, really, in real time, as we speak more and more is being discovered about the mind and the brain, our thoughts and our conscious versus the physiology and the neuroscience and the chemistry of the brain.

Incredible things being discovered. But I want you to remember the simple concept that your subconscious is a sponge and it takes in everything. From all five senses, like it or not. You do not have the luxury of shutting off the system that is your subconscious mind. It is impacting your decisions, your actions and your life, every single moment.

Again, whether you like it or not, you don’t have a choice as to whether or not your subconscious mind impacts the lens through which you see the world. It is impacting you. And the sooner you can come to terms with the fact that what’s happening in 95% of your brain may or may not be in full service of your goals and vision, the sooner you can take action to go and make those changes.

Camille made it so clear, and I want you to hear this again: It is so hard to understand whether or not there’s a problem in the subconscious, because it doesn’t feel like a problem in the moment. It’s going to feel totally normal and natural to you.

It’s something you’ve experienced over and over again. It’s something that’s a part of your nervous system. It’s going to feel normal. So we can say, well, shoot, then there’s nothing I can do about it. Or you can use the simplest test there is and make a decision about whether or not you need to take action.

And here’s the test. Are you getting the results that you want in every area of your life? Yeah. That’s the question. Are you getting results in every area of life that you want? If you are then congratulations, you have nothing in your subconscious mind that needs to work. But if you’re like the rest of humanity and myself included where you can point to a lot of areas of your life, where you’re still not getting the results that you desire, then I guarantee you: work on the subconscious mind is not only going to help you accelerate in those areas, but it may very well be the most impactful thing that you can do. Layering on strategies and tactics and tools in the conscious mind will not eliminate those subconscious blocks and barriers. So we have to do the subconscious work.

This is so important. It’s something all of my clients experience as well, that when you become conscious of what’s happening in the subconscious and then go through a transformational process to shift and change those things and start to manage and control that sponge in a way that’s going to serve you.

Wow. You really do experience momentum and acceleration. And in some cases it just feels like you’re unstoppable when you have this toolkit at your disposal. So reach out to Camille, reach out to me, and the team at OACO. And if you’re not sure what to think about all this, maybe it’s the first time you’ve heard about the subconscious mind in this way, or you just aren’t sure.

You know, you’re curious, you’re an engineer. Ask questions, get curious, but I’m telling you, there is always a subconscious element to reaching the next level in your career and your life. The tool that Camille mentioned called RIM (Regenerated Images in Memory). Just to give you one more little idea on what this is, think about virtual reality. VR – you put on a headset, maybe even some headphones.

So you have the visual and auditory stimulation of, let’s say, walking on a bridge between two high rise buildings with no railings. Maybe you’ve done this VR simulation. It is incredibly scary. You’re in a room and you know that there is a floor all around you and it’s completely safe. But when you put on those VR goggles and you put on those headphones and shut out the world around you, just through those two senses you’re able to be transported into a completely new world. And even though your conscious mind knows what is real, you are feeling and experiencing fear. Your palms may sweat. Your legs may shake. You may be frozen in place, unable to move because of that virtual reality experience. RIM is going into that same level of vivid imagination in a way that allows you to create in your mind an experience that allows for transformation without actually having had the experience.

And I just want you to think of it that way, that your brain and your mind, it’s so powerful in what can be done when you bring these images forward and you create these memories. So I highly encourage you to check it out. Camille’s going to provide some resources for us, for you to learn more about RIM, but honestly, I can tell you from my own experience, just do it. The power of the tool is unbelievable for transformation and I highly encourage it. 

Final thing. Write that letter to yourself. You know, you listen to this podcast because you want more from your career and life. You want to be happy. You want to get results. And I’m so happy that you’re here, but if you don’t take action, you’re not going to experience anything new in your results.

So here’s a really simple action you can take, Go back and ask what brought me here in the first place. Reconnect with that younger version of you who first fell in love with the idea of becoming an engineer. I want you to go back and relive that experience, those thoughts, those emotions. What was it like to be in that place of just excitement and enthusiasm for getting into engineering in the first place and write a letter to yourself.

You know, ‘Dear Zach, I want you to know how excited I am to become an engineer…’ and fill it in. See what surfaces for you. Enjoy the process. If you will do this and take it seriously, I promise you, it’s going to help reveal what you can love about your current situation. What may need action and change in your current situation.

And you’re going to really enjoy getting present to it. So write that letter, have some fun with it. And as always, I just want to encourage you to crush comfort in your life. Create courage. Take action. And let’s do this.

Previous Episode 25: Why Not to ‘Start with Why’ with Nada Buhendi




After several jobs in various fields leaving her unfulfilled, drained and stressed, Camille Saltzman is on a mission to get other people out of jobs that give them the Sunday scaries. She is the founder of Candid Space where she challenges the idea that you’re ever “too old” for a career change and believes it’s always worth it to go after the things that make you happy. 

She currently lives in her native home of Los Angeles and, after living in Seattle for 2 years, is a coffee snob who thoroughly enjoys a slow coffee making process in the morning.





Please note the full transcript is 90-95% accuracy. Reference the podcast audio to confirm exact quotations.

[00:00:00] Zach White: Welcome back happy engineers. It is always a pleasure. And today, no exception as I’m here with my friend and a great coach, Camille Saltzman, and she has. An unbelievable set of experiences and specialties that we can dig into today with Camille. I want to start with one that may feel a little bit disconnected from the normal conversation on this podcast and that’s coffee.

[00:00:35] You are a self-proclaimed coffee snob, and those are not my words. Those are your words. And I love that because I love great coffee. So please come to heal. What is the Camille coffee morning routine? I have just want to hear about this so much. 

Expand to Read Full Transcript

[00:00:56] Camille Saltzman: Um, so like I said, in my bio, I moved to Seattle for a couple of years and that’s really where my snobbery really took off.

[00:01:03] And, um, I guess my routine right now is I’m buying only local beams in LA. So I’ve got a couple of places that I really love, um, that roasts locally. Um, and I now have a hand grinder, which I used to have an electric grinder, um, when I was in Seattle, but it’s in my storage unit right now. That’s there. Um, so I have a hand grinders.

[00:01:24] I hand grind my beans, um, and I use. And I’ve been using a reasonable filter for the Cemex, but it’s not as good as a paper filter. I’m trying to not use as much paper for, you know, environment, but, um, I may have to go back to that. Um, and I love. Slow process of hand, grinding my beans, put it in my Cemex, waiting for it to dread there’s, you know, measuring out the beans, all that kind of stuff.

[00:01:50] And so, um, it’s a nice way to get started with my day and I try and promote it with my clients. Also, like what’s a slow way that you can start your morning, have a cup of coffee and whatever way you want to do it. Um, but yeah, that’s my, that’s my coffee routine these 

[00:02:03] Zach White: days. I love that. So what is it about.

[00:02:07] A slow process and really taking your time that’s important to you? 

[00:02:13] Camille Saltzman: Well, I think something that I found. From my own practice and that I try and share with clients is that I really never liked rushing in the mornings. Um, anytime that I would do that just the rest of the day never felt good. Um, and I’ve found that with a lot of my clients, when they talk about their morning routines, They’re like, especially with the work from home environment that a lot of us are in still, currently because of COVID they just wake up and then turn on their computer or don’t have to think about taking a shower or anything like that.

[00:02:44] And that has really killed their drive burnout, all that kind of stuff. Because they’re not taking the time for themselves. And even if you’re not a morning person, just like having a moment to do something for yourself, take your time to ease into the day is I think just so important and such a crucial way to kind of flip the, the way the rest of your day is going to go.

[00:03:09] Zach White: I love this and I really agree. That the energy you start the day with impacts the rest of the day and morning routines. Get a lot of conversation. There’s a lot of perspectives out there, but maybe the engineering leader listening doesn’t love coffee the way we do. But what would you encourage them to take away from, from this mindset for you?

[00:03:31] What, What, what are the most important pillars of a great morning or how would they take action? On this in a different way. 

[00:03:38] Camille Saltzman: Yeah. It’s what I call like small things. And it’s always doing one very small thing that brings you joy. And one of the things I was listening to a podcast about this, that I’m all about eeky guy, which is, um, like a Japanese wellness, I guess routine in some ways.

[00:03:56] And um, they talk about how starting it off early in the morning and doing something small that brings you joy in the morning. Um, kickstarts just your dopamine for the rest of the day, and then can help you be a bit more productive throughout the day. And so like the guy on the podcast talks about every morning, he’ll have like a small piece of chocolate because that is something.

[00:04:15] Brings him joy. Um, sometimes it’s a matter of, you know, taking that long shower and taking your time when you take your shower and really enjoying the process, um, you know, you know, just whatever it is that makes you feel really good. And it’s small. It doesn’t have to be this like work out, you know, a lot of people tout these like huge morning routines, but just something really small.

[00:04:35] That is your pleasure just for yourself that can really help you just throughout the day. And that’s really what the coffee practice is all about for me. 

[00:04:45] Zach White: Perfect. And so simple, but really powerful. What is something small and bite sized that brings you joy? And give yourself the priority to have that.

[00:04:56] And I hear this from clients a lot, Camille, where they say, I don’t have time for one of these fancy morning routines because I’ve got kids, I’ve got this, I’ve got that. And we have all of our excuses, why we can’t do the two hour, you know, 4:00 AM wake up, meditate, exercise, you know, solve world hunger, and then go to work kind of morning routine.

[00:05:16] And this is a good perspective to say, look, whatever fits in for you. Just take a few minutes for a small thing that sparks joy. Yeah. I like that 

[00:05:27] Camille Saltzman: really small thing 

[00:05:28] Zach White: in the morning. Well, it is absolutely coffee as well. I, I love the first sip I on. I don’t even know how to put words to that moment. When the coffee sits down, I sit down on the couch, I’ve got my, my book I’m right there.

[00:05:45] And I take that first step and all is well in the world. Camille is, is really, is that for me? But if I’m in a situation where I don’t get my, my coffee, then the secondary best part of my morning routine is the gratitude. I do that every day. It just a moment to pause and identify a few things that I’m super grateful for.

[00:06:07] And I look forward to that as well. Yeah. That’s awesome. 

[00:06:10] Camille Saltzman: Amazing. So you talked about the first cup, just by the way. 

[00:06:15] Zach White: We’re going to need to pause this episode for a cup of coffee. Sorry, listeners here. Okay, Camille, you’re on a mission and I love the work that you’re doing right now to get people out of jobs that give them the Sunday scaries.

[00:06:30] And I mean, you hear that phrase and everybody gets it like, yes, I know what you’re talking about. For the sake of understanding your experience and perspective around this, what is it really that you’re talking about? What does it mean to you when you think about the Sunday scaries, what is that whole problem that you’re seeking to solve in your mission in the world?

[00:06:51] Camille Saltzman: Yeah. I mean, it is so related to the last straw that I had before becoming a coach. Um, it was a job that required a lot from me. I wasn’t getting paid a ton. Wasn’t being acknowledged for the work that I was doing, especially during COVID. Um, and it was just the. 

[00:07:07] It Sunday, scaries doesn’t even just happen on Sundays. It starts on Fridays when you’re going into the weekend and already anticipating what you’re going to feel on Monday, going back into work, the things that you’re going to have to deal with, it’s also waking up in the middle of the night, panicked about a work assignment or that you’ve missed something or that you’re getting an email right now that, um, you’re going to have to deal with it’s conversations that you don’t want to have.

[00:07:35] But it really is just this constant stress and anxiety that you aren’t performing well, that you don’t feel good about the work that you’re doing, that, um, you would rather be doing anything else. And you’re constantly just in anticipation of the next worst thing. And that really was everything that I felt.

[00:07:52] It’s what I see my clients go through currently. And when they’re, I think it’s both about an unfulfilling job where. Realizing their full potential, but then it’s also the ways that companies treat people and that they, you know, don’t acknowledge the hard work that people are doing in the, in a pandemic, in the types of situations that we’re in, working from home kids, all that kind of stuff.

[00:08:14] Um, and so it’s just this like constant stress and, and pain that you’re in. Um, and that’s, yeah, that’s kind of how I define the Sunday scaries. 

[00:08:24] Zach White: Everyone listening had something in there that you just said that resonates for them either right now or in the past, if you don’t congratulations, you’re in the minority, but something you said that really triggered for me is did we talk a lot about Sunday afternoon depression or the Sunday scaries, but for so many people that actually begins effecting.

[00:08:47] Friday after work, you’re already subconsciously dreading going back and it’s taking away from your whole life. It’s, you’re not even enjoying the weekend at the level that you might want to, and it triggers so many other negative impacts. But Camille, what is it for you that you see with your clients or with the people who are in this constant state of low level anxiety or depression around work?

[00:09:14] Where does it show up first? What’s the thing that actually causes somebody to realize I have a real problem here. I need to take action. 

[00:09:24] Camille Saltzman: Unfortunately it happens when they’re like past a point of really being able to deal with it on their own. They are depressed at work.  It starts much earlier than when they actually come to me or come to you for help.

[00:09:40] Um, It’s you know, for in the beginning, it’s not feeling great about the work that you’re doing, but then passing it off as like, oh, well it’s just work. Or, you know, you’re kind of gaslighting yourself. Like, well, people don’t really love their jobs anyway. So this is just what work is. And then sometimes I have clients who have done, we’ve gone a year, two years kind of in that mental state.

[00:10:01] And then that’s the breaking point of when they’re. Oh, my God, I can’t live like this anymore. I’m not okay. And when they’re at that point, they can’t think about anything else. They can’t even begin to think about, like, what do I want for myself? Because all they can really think about is just how helpless they feel in the situation that they’re in.

[00:10:22] And, um, Yeah, and just getting really hard on themselves and then really resenting the work environment that they’re in, where at one point it may be, they could still see, oh, I still like my coworkers or maybe some of the work’s interesting, but then they really get to this point of like, no, now I’m like angry about the work that I’m doing.

[00:10:39] And, and that’s where it’s really hard because you’ve got to dig out, uh, out of a lot of things when you’re in that state of mind. 

[00:10:45] Zach White: I wish it weren’t true, but I agree with you. That’s so often people wait until they’re past a certain point of. Easy fixes and into really difficult places. In some cases, permanent, you know, whether it’s health-related diet type two diabetes or, you know, divorce or you name it.

[00:11:02] And I hate that when, what people have to get to that level before they take action. So tell me from your perspective, Camille, someone’s listening to this conversation and they’re, they’re kind of associating or connecting and resonating with what you’re describing, but maybe before today, Never really put themselves in the category of someone who needs help, but they want to diagnose like, am I on that trajectory?

[00:11:25] And I need to take action before I hit that rock bottom moment. What would you encourage someone to do or to, to ask that would help shed some light on the reality of what direction. This 

[00:11:38] Camille Saltzman: is a great question because, um, Adam Grant, who does a lot of work in like leadership and, um, organizations, um, talks about how people should take a hard look at the jobs that they are currently in.

[00:11:52] Um, to see if there is a way that they can kind of restructure the jaw before deciding to leave a job. And this doesn’t work for everyone. There are plenty of people who are really just not, okay. It’s not a good work environment, but there are some people like what you were just describing a person who’s like starting to ask questions.

[00:12:08] Not really sure are they on this path. Um, and so really just taking a look at. Re-evaluating what do I want for myself? What am I looking for in my career? What are my strengths, really looking at the strengths part of it, and even, you know, ask friends, ask coworkers, like, what do you think my strengths are?

[00:12:29] And are you using those strengths on a daily basis? Cause I think that’s where a lot of people end up feeling really hurt in the jobs that they’re in. And it’s because they realize that the things that they care about most, the values that they have, the really strong, you know, work ethics that they have, aren’t being fully realized in the work, um, or the company’s not recognizing them for those things.

[00:12:50] And so just kind of mapping those things out and being able to put those things into words and saying, okay, Environment working for me. And if it’s not like, are there ways that I can utilize those strengths a bit more? Are there ways that, um, I can find those values and other parts of the company is the company treating me the way that I want or that kind of stuff. So just really mapping it out. 

[00:13:13] Zach White: That’s really good. It makes sense. And it’s, it is something that we forget is even on the table that you. Retune or reshape, right where you’re at in a way that could open a whole new level of excitement and enthusiasm and connection to the work you’re doing. And sometimes we just assume we’re trapped or stuck inside the box that we’re in.

[00:13:35] One thing that stood out to me and we chatted a bit before we hit record for this conversation about it. It’s a bit of the other side, the hidden side of how these environments damage us in our lives and in our careers that the conscious mind may think, or, you know, associate certain things to what’s going on.

[00:13:56] But when we’re in this Sunday, scaries life week after week after week, months, or even years, it impacts the subconscious mind and the nervous system at a way that we may not have. Access to, or really understand what’s happening. And I know this is an area of expertise and genius for you. Camille, can you talk to that a little bit?

[00:14:17] Cause for the engineer listening, maybe you’ve never considered what’s happening in your subconscious. And just tell us a bit about what’s going on there and how it impacts us. Yeah. So the 

[00:14:28] Camille Saltzman: subconscious. It’s a huge part of our brain. People say it’s anywhere between like 93 to 95, 90 7% of the brain. And the other part of it is the conscious.

[00:14:37] So it’s so small what we’re actually conscious of and what we feel we’re taking in. And part of the problem with the subconscious mind is that it is a sponge. It takes in all information from an early age, doesn’t know how to filter it and it just hangs out there. So things that happened to you when you were a kid.

[00:14:56] They’re hanging out there. You may not even know. They’re not memories that, you know, you’re consciously aware of, but they’re still dictating so many different parts of your life. And, um, and so this shows up in so many different ways, it shows up in feeling depressed at work. You know, as you were talking about over time, feeling like, um, you know, your job, not working for you, not feeling so good, all that kind of stuff, but it may even start from the beginning of when you’ve accepted a job and you feel like you should ask for more money, but don’t know how to ask for more money when you’re given a job offer.

[00:15:24] Um, and maybe you have money mindset blocks. Like those are things that. Becoming from something from when you were a child or somebody talked to you in a certain way. And so you haven’t been able to build up that confidence. And that’s where the practice that I do REM, which is regenerating images and memory really comes in because we dig into what’s happening in the subconscious, use the imagination to bring shape to it and pass through what that emotion is because a lot of it is just.

[00:15:53] That moment is frozen in time and hanging out there and dictating things for us. And what we need to do is go through it like a tunnel and arrive at the other end of it, and feel that sense of completion and realization. Um, and then that can help us kind of move forward in ways that we didn’t expect.

[00:16:11] Zach White: Wow. Yeah.

[00:16:16] So. For myself and for people to see, like we may or may not have all the expertise and you use some really new concepts, big words. I want to unpack this because I want to make sure that this is perfect. You know, what a curious engineer and me not like let’s break it down. I want to understand this. So the engineer, uh, World that we live in very logical, very focused on that 5% of the conscious mind, thoughts that I have access to.

[00:16:43] So the whole notion that 95% of my world is being driven by a subconscious mind. Maybe for some people who’ve never actually even considered that. Um, so just starting right there with this idea. The majority of the computing power of your brain is subconscious and it’s a sponge that’s soaking up everything, whether you meant to or not is a really like, whoa, that’s kind of a compelling thought.

[00:17:08] Um, scary. What does that really mean in practice? Like take me to a specific situation. Maybe play it out. Like, how does that ongoing sponge of the subconscious mind? Affect us day to day, or how does it show up? Like, what are the clues? I don’t know. You’d take that whatever direction you want Camille, but help us understand a little bit more of this interaction between the conscious and the subconscious, 

[00:17:32] Camille Saltzman: um, It’s hard for clues because it’s things that we feel like are just totally normal of what we do with our day to day, how we interact with people.

[00:17:43] Um, sometimes it’s maybe ways that you label yourself like, oh, I’m a shy person, or, oh, I don’t know how to express myself in certain ways. You know, those are things that. Over time have been maybe said to us when we were younger, maybe it’s just one interaction that happened. Um, when you were in high school and you don’t even think about it, but it’s still there and it’s somehow is still dictating the way you take action every day, the way you interact with other people and the way you go about, um, job and career satisfaction, or what types of job you you go for.

[00:18:19] And, um, Yeah. It plays out in so many different ways, but then when we can do work on it, you know, it’s things like, I just had a room session with somebody recently who, um, had a memory of her parents going through a hard time and her parents split up into two different cars and she’s in a parking lot.

[00:18:40] And she realized in that moment, When she was going through it first, she hadn’t thought about that memory in many years, but two, it was kind of the first time that she saw her parents as being human and having flaws. And she was a young child in all of this. And. has dictated kind of the way she has relationships with her parents, but also how she sees life in general because, um, she saw those flaws and she saw what adults can do.

[00:19:09] And she saw the effect that it can have on a child as well. But she hadn’t been thinking about that for so long and yet it still was showing up. She suddenly was piecing together so many things in her life. That were related back to this moment when she was like seven years old, 

[00:19:23] Zach White: this is huge. And I want to highlight it back because I really. The engineering leader, listening to get this. We spend as engineers, most of our time, focused on physics and chemistry and things that are driven by mathematics and equations and Y equals F of X in the world around us. And what you’re describing is what’s happening in the world within. And it’s not physics.

[00:19:43] It’s not this equals that it’s not always predictable. And the, the thing you said that so powerful, I just want to highlight again, is that it’s hard to find or discern in my conscious mind a clue about a problem or a block or a limit in my subconscious, because it’s going to feel and seem totally normal.

[00:20:06] And, you know, you may get that job offer and not negotiate for the money that you deserve. And you’ll say to yourself, well, it’s just because, you know, I don’t have confidence or that’s normal, you know, most people don’t negotiate. It’s cool. And you just accept that limit when in reality, that behavior in that moment could be linked to something.

[00:20:25] Lack of self worth from a memory and your subconscious mind, that’s impacting you all the time and you’re not seeing it. And this process of rim is one of the tools that Camille and coaches like Camille use to help you discover it and create transformation. So I know we don’t have time today to actually explain the neuroscience of rim and its full glory, but can you just give us a little taste of like, what happens?

[00:20:52] What is it. Transformation like in the subconscious when you go through the 

[00:20:56] Camille Saltzman: process. Yeah. So the biggest thing that you get from it is the fact that your brain as smart as it is, and there’s so much that we still don’t understand about the brain. And it’s such an awesome thing that we get to have and study, um, doesn’t know the difference between a.

[00:21:16] Memory or a thing that has ha is happening currently in front of you and something that you were imagining just in your mind. So like, if you were to close your eyes and imagine yourself on the edge of a cliff, you, your body would start freaking out as if you were still, you were actually on the edge of that cliff.

[00:21:31] And because of that, when we do rim, part of the tool that you use is your imagination and you start creating these new memories, these new neural pathways that can. Not replace, but just feel as strong as the actual memory that’s been there. And while you’re having these realizations, those realizations are really embedding themselves into you on like a cellular level where they feel like they actually happen.

[00:22:01] And so then as you move forward, you know, there’s two parts to it. There is the actual realization where you’re saying things to yourself, or you’re saying somebody is telling you something and. You know, they’re very profound things. And then there’s also the potential for a new memory to be created altogether.

[00:22:18] And those are things that you’re going to remember beyond, uh, the rim session itself. And as you move forward, then that can help now dictate the way you go about your life. This is why it’s so powerful if you feel depressed at work.

[00:22:29] Zach White: This is so cool and I will, could easily spend the rest of the day just digging into this. The nerd in me is kind of coming to the surface, but what I want to do, Camille’s maybe let’s just pause that and say, Hey, if you’re curious, you know, listener to learn more about this, then we’re going to give you a chance to connect with Camille.

[00:22:47] And, and there is a lot of. Inside of subconscious transformation and that’s, uh, you know, one of many things that great coaches can help you with. And I just want to leave it there for now with this challenge to the engineering leader, listening to not accept normal. As the end of what is possible for you.

[00:23:07] And, and there is absolutely power to unlock inside yourself through a process like rim and the tools that Camille brings to the table. I want to touch another area though, because I love you. You know, the voice and the message that you bring around career transition and a lot of engineers in particular, because they’ve invested four years and a lot of money, or maybe five or six years and a lot of money or a master’s or a PhD or whatever into engineering.

[00:23:35] There’s a sense of pressure that I have to stay in this track because. I can’t make this kind of money doing something else. And I spend all this time, I’m pot committed to this path and there’s nothing else for me. And you know, I’m 30 and it’s too late or whatever. What is it that you would say to somebody who feels that it’s too late to make a change in their career path?

[00:23:59] Camille Saltzman: It’s never too late. I am like the strongest believer in that it’s never too late. Um, because when break it down into numbers for my engineers, If you are 30 and you are realizing maybe engineering is not path for you, or you’d like to explore, what else is out there? Say you retire at 60. We’ll say sounds nice.

[00:24:21] That’s a whole 30 years of a career that you can have. That’s completely different. And 30 years is like a really long time for a career to begin with. So you could even do two different careers in that time span, but really the message for me is. If you spend somewhere between 40 to 55 hours a week doing something, you know, you want to love it.

[00:24:44] You want to do something that feels good and, you know, I don’t believe that everybody has to love their job. I understand if that’s not for you, but at least not dreading the everyday not hating what you have to do all the time. If you’re wondering what else is out there, just start exploring what else is out there that might fulfill some of those strengths that you have.

[00:25:06] But really it is about like, don’t just stick to this because it’s what you’ve done so far. And you are not too old to make a switch. There are plenty of people who are doing. All the time. And that means that you can also, 

[00:25:21] Zach White: I love that Camille and the spirit of how so I’m with you. I want to change my career path.

[00:25:28] Maybe the engineer listening has just been waiting for you to give them permission, to be able to change. And it’s like, you can do it. It’s never too late. What do you actually encourage somebody to think about as. Step is it just quit your job and go, is it start building skills in a new area? Like w where would someone begin if they connect with what you just said?

[00:25:48] Camille Saltzman: I mean, if you were somebody who was crying every day before work, I want to say, quit your job. But, you know, I know not everybody’s in that type of situation. It’s scary. Um, but yeah, if you’re in that level of job situation, quit your job 

[00:26:02] Zach White: and go. All right. So if you’re crying before work every day, call Camille after this episode and quit your job and let’s go.

[00:26:12] Okay. But what else, if maybe that’s not. 

[00:26:15] Camille Saltzman: No, if it’s not that extreme and you’re really just wondering what else is out there, you know, could I have had a different life as a graphic designer or whatever? One of the things that I love giving as a tool to clients and just to anyone in general, what did you love doing as a kid?

[00:26:32] That’s like a huge starting point to me. What did you love doing as a kid? Because a lot of it can inform what it is that we need today to feel fulfilled, right? Like if you were somebody who was playing with dolls all the time and wanted to care for those dolls and that kind of stuff, maybe you need to do something where you care for people more on a day-to-day basis.

[00:26:52] Um, maybe you were painting a lot as a kid and you were super crafty in the job that you have currently. It not very creative in that way. And so, you know, maybe it’s a matter of just introducing a hobby of painting again. Um, and that will make you feel better, but just, just taking a quick look at like, when I was younger, maybe up until like the high school days, like what brought you joy on a day-to-day basis and, and, and just kinda start 

[00:27:14] Zach White: from there.

[00:27:15] I think that’s brilliant. Simple action to take set aside some time. Go back to your childhood years and ask what brought me that happiness and joy that, and just compare, you know, is what you’re doing today, connecting to that same part of you. Or if there’s a big disconnect, it just is information you can use to decide how to move forward.

[00:27:37] And I want to repeat something you said, because I don’t think I’ve ever heard somebody say this Camille, and it’s really powerful. You don’t have to love your. You know, and even for me the message at a Waco often, you know, this idea of whole life balance and fulfillment and purpose sometimes gets misconstrued into, I must have this deep loving, passionate connection to work or I’m broken or I’ve failed or something’s wrong.

[00:28:02] And I just appreciate so much that you’re bringing that like, Hey, this isn’t about what’s right or wrong. It’s just about what you want to do. And if, if you’re totally fulfilled with. Crying before work every day. Like, okay. That’s, that’s fine. If that’s your authentic choice. I think maybe the challenge to you is, is that, that subconscious block and just what has been normal for you for a long time accepting something that’s not actually what you desire.

[00:28:30] So, 

[00:28:30] Camille Saltzman: yeah. No, that’s a perfect. Bring it back to that. But yeah, I mean, I used to have this conversation with friends all the time. Cause I was somebody who was like, no, I want to feel fulfilled in the work that I do. I want my passion to match my job. That’s really important to me. But then I also saw the other side of it, of people who were like, I.

[00:28:48] Like my job. And these are people who are in jobs, situations that are really great. Like they have great benefits. Um, they partially enjoy the work that they’re doing every day. Um, but it’s not like their big passion, their job just helps pay for the passion that they do on the weekends. Um, whether it’s rock climbing or biking or whatever it is.

[00:29:08] The job just feeds into that and that’s how they feel, feel fulfilled. And so, you know, yeah, the message of, I, you don’t have to love your job, but what’s really important is at least just feeling supported and like you’re being creative every day. And, um, that you’re, you’re using your strengths and that you don’t feel like you’re just wasting away at a desk every day.

[00:29:29] Zach White: Yeah. If your career is a big minus in your life, I really believe you’ve got to take a hard look at that, but, uh, I really appreciate your perspective on that, Camille. Well, Hey, in the interest of time, I’d love to keep going because again, kind of started me out here, but I want to, I want to land the plane and I always finished with this same question, and I’m super excited kind of, to hear where you take this, but, you know, great engineering, all of the listeners here, you know, working hard, doing amazing work in the technical spaces they work in, or maybe they’re out of engineering now and managing or leading teams.

[00:29:51] The truth is great. Engineering is like great coaching in that questions, lead and answers follow. And if you want to be happy and fulfilled in life, we want to ask great questions. So Camille, what’s your perspective. If the engineering leader listening wants to be happy and fulfilled, what is the best question you would lead them with today?

[00:30:13] Camille Saltzman: Well, it’s interesting. Cause it’s brought back to the, you know, looking at your past kind of thing, because I do believe in that I believe that we have all of the answers in us. It’s just a matter of digging through. And so I think if you’re in a place where you’re asking yourself questions about your career or wondering whether engineering is still right for you, just asking, like what brought you to engineering in the first place?

[00:30:33] And just looking back on that and just wondering, you know, what, what drew you there? What got you going write a letter to yourself and just talk about what are the things that, that brought you there first and is your current engineering situation in line with what brought you there in the first place?

[00:30:51] Zach White: Can you describe that letter to yourself? Exercise. 

[00:30:56] Camille Saltzman: Yeah. So I have my clients do this as well, that they kind of write a letter cause moments. There are tough moments in our lives and when we make a career shift, um, it can be tough. They can definitely, especially a job. Searching is just such a pain these days and can be really disheartening.

[00:31:07] And the letter to yourself as to remind you of what it is that you’re here for. So. It’s just asking again that, you know, what brought you to engineering and really try and put yourself in that mindset. Just take a quick moment, put yourself in that mindset of the day that you decided you were gonna study engineering in school, or maybe, you know, it was in high school at some point.

[00:31:29] Or did somebody tell you that this would be a good career path for you? And when you made that decision? What did you feel like you were going to get out of it? And what did you want? Um, what did you want to learn? Like what, what was your mission in doing this and 

[00:31:43] Zach White: writing it all out? Would you encourage someone to write that from the perspective of present day, me writing to.

[00:31:52] Present day me, or is it, you know, 22 year old me, when I graduated from college writing to present day, me or 80 year old rocking chair version of me, like how, how would you frame the perspective of that letter? 

[00:32:05] Camille Saltzman: Um, I would do it. Your younger self. So really just like I said, putting yourself back in those shoes of where you were back then and trying to remember all of those things and writing it to your present self.

[00:32:20] Zach White: Awesome. I’m excited by this. I’m totally going to do it. Thank you so much for just the insights and your generosity and this conversation to share some. You know, interesting nerdy tips and actionable tips and things that our engineers can start to soak in, but I know people are gonna want to hear and, and, and connect with you more.

[00:32:41] So can you just share with the listener if they want to reach out and get some more information about you and your work and your coaching, where should. Uh, 

[00:32:49] Camille Saltzman: find me on Instagram at Camille Saltzman, um, and reach out DM. Doesn’t matter if you’re interested in doing work together. If you want to ask more questions about rim, um, I’m always open book to talk about all things, career coaching, life, whatever.

[00:33:05] So at Camille Saltzman on Instagram. Perfect. 

[00:33:08] Zach White: So we’ll put that and all the other links and places you can find Camille and. Resources and her coaching programs on our website, in the show [email protected], where you always go and engineers, I really do encourage you. Please connect with Camille.

[00:33:25] She’s a fantastic coach. She has some incredible tools to help you get into that 95% that you’re, let’s face it blind to in your subconscious. So I really encourage you to do that. And Camille, thanks again for making time for being with us today. 

[00:33:40] Camille Saltzman: I love this conversation.