047: Win the Game of Life and Beat the Boss Level with Joshua Church

[00:00:16] Zach White: So I want to start with you in a place that is near and dear to the heart of most engineers that I know, and it is for me and that’s video games.

[00:00:27] I want to talk about video games and you know, whether it’s like all the way back from pong, you know, maybe some of our older listeners who are there on the original days of video games released up to. Yeah, goodness. The incredible world of online gaming and e-sports the world we’re in. Now, a lot of us have found some level of escape this alternate reality, a virtual reality that gaming brings into our life and it’s super fun.

[00:00:53] And we spend a lot of time there, but one thing that I love about you and when we first connected and I got to spend time with you and coach with you and enjoy learning from you was how you’ve adopted some of that. Language and philosophy of life being a game into reality into the real world that we’re living in, where most of us see these things as two really separate, you know, there’s the real world.

[00:01:18] And then there’s that. Would you just share a bit about that philosophy and the story of how that came into your. So I, I also, I’m remembering back to the first video games that I was planning, which was on my black and white game boy playing Pokemon.

[00:01:34] Joshua Church: And I had like the little light it was before the back lit the plugging, the little light that was over. So being like long car rides from baseball tournaments and the back to the car. Yeah, devouring, Pokemons. Um, super fun. So, yeah. where that really came from was this, uh, idea of, um, of, of really that we, we can choose.

[00:01:58] We have the, we have the ability of free choice in this life, which is beautiful. And I, I got very inspired by, Victor Frankl, his book man’s search for meaning when he says. Everything can be taken from a man. But one thing is the last thing, his ability to choose his own way in any given set of circumstances.

[00:02:18] And that was always inspiring to me to see. How someone who had gone through the depths and horrors of what humanity’s capable of and still come out on the other side and have that perspective that he believes help them survive, that he can choose his own way, regardless of anything happening that always stuck with me, that we have the empowering possibility and opportunity to make.

[00:02:39] Choices and decisions. And I’m very cognizant that there’s certain countries of the world too, that are at different stages with that. I’m grateful to be in America where we do have that choice as well, more so than a lot of other countries. And it’s easy for us to forget that, but I really love that idea that we can choose what we want to do.

[00:02:55] And so it really started for me in college. Um, after college, when I moved to LA, I moved to Los Angeles. three of my best friends from school and we, we were dreamers. I had actually left school early to go do an internship at a company in San Francisco. It was supposed to be for semester and ended up being for the rest of college.

[00:03:16] I never actually went back, still graduated from sports was amazing, but by the time senior year actually came around, my friends were low, ready to get into the real world. And we were just. Let’s take a shot. Like, why don’t you guys move out to Santa Monica? let’s get a place together. Let’s hustle, let’s grind.

[00:03:32] Like let’s, let’s see if we can make something happen. We all have this hunger, this desire of like the same ambition. And it took all of us individually to have that. And then collectively to actually make it a possibility. one of my friends, literally the first time he was out to California was when he came out to move, his parents had never been out.

[00:03:49] We’re talking about people from small town, Ohio and Pennsylvania that are moving out to the west coast is a massive thing, but we did it together and we had each other. And so that kind of was this idea of like, oh, whoa, like we can do this. you just got to actually just do it. And so that started, started this idea of.

[00:04:07] Okay, well, we have power and empower and control, and also there’s gonna be challenges along the way, like every level of stage. And we can talk about this in a second too, but there’s like, you reach like the boss level and then there’s like a breakthrough. Right? So we’ll talk about that in a sec, but that just kind of gives you this to set the stage a little bit in how I started viewing that really starts in, like you’re in control.

[00:04:24] You have the controller in your hand, it’s your video game, your player. But you are player one, you got the control on your hands and you’ve got this amazing map. You’ve got this globe, you’ve got this map. You’ve got all these characters you can go up to and interact with. You’ve got these treasure hunts.

[00:04:38] You can go on, like you can do it. You’ve got the control on your hand. Don’t forget he got it. In your hand, 

[00:04:43] Zach White: that idea of having the controller in your hand. I love this. So I am player one and here I have not to be a victim to the circumstances around me, but to make a decision, make a choice. Where am I going to take?

[00:04:57] My character take us from there. Here I am. uh, maybe I want to buy into that idea. What does that really mean? How does this come to life? Sure. 

[00:05:06] Joshua Church: First thing first, what’s the first thing you do. When you start in a video game or going to video game, you got to create your character. You got to build the character.

[00:05:12] What are the attributes of the. Like, is your character going to have, you know, you control like, you know, every time he played Madden, you know, you create your own player, any sport games, or even any, you know, call of duty, any, shooting player games, or whatever you call those player games. You’ve got you build the attributes of like speed or agility or, height or jump or.

[00:05:30] So when you get to build those, and there’s certain trade-offs to different ones, so you gotta like choose wisely. And that idea was really powerful for me is also like we get to be who we want to be. And that’s where you start. Who do you want to be? Who do you want to identify as what are the virtues that you want to live up to?

[00:05:46] What are the qualities of the type of person you want to stop step into? And how can you start identifying with that now? Because that’s the process of becoming like you are that person inside. But you got to get clear on, like, who do you want to identify as? Do you want identify someone who’s, who’s happy, who’s healthy, who’s grateful.

[00:06:01] Who’s successful. Who’s a business owner. Like whatever you want, we’re playing dress up over here. Like it’s a characters you can pull, you can be what character you want. And I really learned that when I, after I quit my job, that same job I was telling you about that I went to from college I quit that job to go travel around.

[00:06:16] Just like a solo backpacking trip. And I was in the depression, I’m going to go find myself. But when I realized the big insight from that was that, was on successful because I wasn’t lost. And it was not about finding yourself. It’s about creating yourself. My mom shared that line with me.

[00:06:28] Life’s not about finding yourself. It’s about creating yourself. Shout out to my mom on that one. She told me that before the trip, but obviously like I was like, yeah, whatever. I’ve got to go find my head to go anyway. 

[00:06:36] Zach White: Joshua, can you, I want to pause on this point because I, I used to be in the camp as a young person coming out of college.

[00:06:44] And the engineer in me, this mantra of, I have certain strengths. I have weaknesses. Some of these things are genetic. If you want to say that, you know, it’s my personality. It’s just who I am. And I don’t get to just go take my controller and select. The attributes that I want, I need to work with the attributes that I was given that kind of fixed mindset, if you will.

[00:07:09] So can you address what’s your belief around that? Is there a limit to where these things can go and if somebody’s not really buying it, what would you say? I would ask why not 

[00:07:20] Joshua Church: challenge that assumption, challenge that belief, not only have I seen in my life only, have you seen it in your life?

[00:07:25] I mean, what you’re doing right now probably does not align with a lot of the skillsets you thought were impossible if I’ve haven’t, but you’re an example of that, right? You don’t have to look far to see dozens and dozens, thousands of millions of examples that we have of humans out in the world. So I always look to the masters.

[00:07:40] I look to the teachers, I look to the mentors who are living it, who are doing it. And they all say the same message. And they’re like, yo, if I can do it, you can do it. Right. We hear that message from EV a lot. And then there’s a lot of validity and truth to that, which is like, We are invaluable.

[00:07:53] And I do believe that there is this growth mindset and it’s not a fixed mindset. So that’s the first step is you have to believe it’s possible. you have to, actually know that you have the controller in your hand. Otherwise you’re watching a movie where you don’t have control over.

[00:08:05] And then it’s really easy to be like, well, this is a movie. This is happening, but I don’t have control. But as soon as you’re like, wait, it’s actually a video game. I got the controller in my hands. Then it changes that. And then you start to see, well, I tend to do these things and I would also say looking at your past, because you’re probably right now, Contradicting that belief as we speak, you probably are doing something right now that you didn’t think was possible.

[00:08:25] You’re probably doing something right now that you thought was impossible for you to achieve or for you to do like something crazy that you once held in your mind. You now holding your hands. look at your past. We don’t give ourselves enough credit. I think for that. there’s evidence all 

[00:08:36] Zach White: around.

[00:08:37] Can you give us a specific example from your journey where you took the control on your hand and said, you know, My character that I’m creating. I want to add and level up this skill. this attribute you made that conscious choice to go after it. What scenario for you? the first comes top of mind right now is when I discovered that I actually liked reading, which was like what? I was like 21 or 22 years old. I was hated reading, growing up in school. I hated it. parents had to force me to do our summer reading for school and I would just spark noted anyway, like I hated.

[00:09:11] Joshua Church: And so I got one of my friends, literally bought me a Kindle and downloaded the book, the Alchemist on it for me and said, please, but I’m giving this to you read this so big shout out to Ricky bogger for that one, because I passed that. That’s one of my favorite gifts to give now is to give the Kindle somewhere.

[00:09:25] so I read the Alchemist and I was like, oh, Whoa. Reading is dope. Reading is cool. Like learning is actually fun. And then I kinda got this curiosity or this hunger that they kind of awoken in me, which is like, I want to learn more like, whoa, there’s some ideas awakening. I mean, I stumbled upon a Tim Ferriss podcast.

[00:09:45] Joshua Church: I’m like, whoa, Tim Ferriss. This guy is interesting. He’s learning a lot. He’s interviewed cool people. I go so deep into that world. I started, I started becoming a learner, so I created the identity with myself too. And this attribute. I’m a learner. I love learning. I love reading. I love learning. I also identify that that was something that I saw from other successful people around me and people that I wanted to aspire to be like is that they were all curious people that were all learners.

[00:10:07] They were all avid readers and learners and consumers of knowledge and insight and wisdom. And so that was one that like really helped me step into my. 

[00:10:16] Zach White: I love that. I love that. So. All right. We’re starting the game. You boot up the system. I take the controller in my hand. I stopped watching movies. I get into the game of life and I start creating my character.

[00:10:29] next? Where do we go with this philosophy of Joshua Church? I love this. 

[00:10:34] next 

[00:10:34] Joshua Church: step is follow your curiosity. So you don’t have to look far. I really believe that those things that feel intriguing or insightful or are charming to us, they can lead us to remarkable places advice I was given was like, go down the rabbit hole, whatever, like rabbit hole.

[00:10:51] You’re just like, oh, there’s this thing that I’m just so curious about her. I’m passionate. That’s in my opinion, that’s your soul or your higher power, your inner being God calling you forward and being like, Hey, come on, follow me. It’s the breadcrumbs follow the breadcrumbs.

[00:11:04] they’re laid out for you. my life is full of those examples building on that time frame, you’re talking about the travel time. The post-college time where I was became interested in my learning about education. I watched a Ted talk on the education system and I was just like, whoa.

[00:11:19] Joshua Church: Especially after the education that I had with. Well, educational assistant needs a total reboot. I became super interested. It was like listening to podcasts and reading books about education and people that are disrupting it. And just found that really curious. I was so curious about that. So naturally what I did was remembered that I had a, my old principal from high school who I was close with.

[00:11:38] He moved to Japan to become the founding, had mastered the school in Japan, and it was like a really innovative school that was founded by like what they call like the Elon Musk type a person and just sharing. So they’re going to add design innovation, mindfulness, and design thinking, all built into the curriculum and it was a boarding school.

[00:11:56] And I thought I came to mind. I was like, oh, interesting. Curiosity. And then those breadcrumbs are those impulses. those pings, if you will. It’s like a little thing of like, I wonder, I wonder what, Mr. J’s up to. I wonder how that’s been for him. So I sent him an email, got on a Skype call with them and I was just like, Hey, I’m interested in this.

[00:12:15] I’m curious. what’s it like over there? what are you finding? And tell me about the education system. He was just like, I can sit here and tell you about it, or you could come out here and experience it firsthand if you want. So we can fly you out here and give you a stipend to be doing a teaching fellowship out here.

[00:12:28] So you can like interact with the students in the faculty the summer, if you’re open for it. And I’m like, um, let me see. I followed them and it was like, cool, next adventure. We’re onto this adventure. And then that led me deeper down into the education system, which eventually led me to connect with the crazy guy named Zander fryer, who had started a company called shit

[00:12:47] you don’t learn in college at the time though. The umbrella company. That I partnered up with. And five years later, here we are. I feel like those, pings or those, curiosities it’s the rabbit hole that’s leading you to where you want to go. It’s the rabbit hole.

[00:12:59] That’s leading you down your calling. It’s the rabbit hole. That’s, pushing you forward and we need to follow those. Cause every time I followed those, it’s led to the most amazing thing. And then just to give one more example here and I’ll hand it 

[00:13:09] Zach White: back over to you. Oh, you’re fine, man. This is awesome.

[00:13:11] I love this. 

[00:13:12] three years ago. Three. And a half years ago, I listened to a podcast with Wim Hoff, this crazy Dutch guy who was swimming underneath the polar ice caps, Condon, Mount Everest in the shorts, and literally rewriting science textbooks because of study, showing how we can actually control our autonomic nervous system.

[00:13:29] Joshua Church: I was fascinated by it. Podcasts. I was researching on the website and I stumbled upon the website and saw that there was a retreat in Iceland coming up that March. And I looked at my calendar and I was open that week and I felt this polar, this pink. I like that phrase of like a little ping of like, huh.

[00:13:47] Interesting. I was over at my parent’s house at the time when I was on the computer and I had booked the retreat and I just wanted to vacation. I’m like, Hey mom, I don’t know what I just did, but I’m going to Iceland. She was like, what do you want to create that? And that led me on this beautiful journey of integrating with and learning tools like breathwork and cold immersion, which led me to go into another retreat, which led me to eventually hosting my own retreat in this.

[00:14:15] And doing a lot of work with people in breathwork and human operations, human optimization, and then eventually going back just last month to co-leader retreat in Iceland and with the same person that led the retreat. The first time with me, like a beautiful, full circle moment. And that also started meeting and gave me the idea with my cousin of launching this cold tub company, which we just launched last week of building this, this portable cold tub.

[00:14:36] So it’s like to think back to when I had that, like the ping was very clear. It was just like, this is intriguing. I’m going to follow this. But to think about like how that led to. This ends up having a business born out of this and an opportunity to serve people in a way that I’m passionate about it.

[00:14:51] This is like it’s mind blowing. Like that’s how life happens. So go down the rabbit 

[00:14:55] Zach White: hole. I go down the rabbit hole and I remember in my engineering career, You know, those who know my story. I had a really challenging rock bottom moment where life had fallen apart. Totally burned out. Couldn’t believe it just embarrassed out of this world.

[00:15:11] And what followed was, you know, an interaction with a good friend of mine from church who happened to be a coach. And, she just extended the offer, you know, would you be open doing some coaching and talking through where you’re at what you want to do next and how you. Reshape and reframe your life going forward.

[00:15:30] And that coaching engagement triggered for me a major pink, to use your language like the ping of man. I love this coaching experience receiving coaching and how it’s changing my life and the catalyst that has spent and new ways of being a new actions and new results. just kept following that went off and did some coach training, continued to hire coaches, continued to work and had no idea at the time that coaching would end up becoming my business and the sole focus of my life, bringing my passion for engineering together with a whole new passion.

[00:16:07] maybe just for the engineering leader, listening, I might sound like this is kind of chaotic or crazy, but in my journey. That one day I was an engineer. The next day I was a coach. You know, this was years of slow pulling. Those was one breadcrumb after another learning, growing, developing. And then, there are these step function, change moments that occur, but I just am really encouraged by the fact that it’s okay to just start small, just start pulling little threads.

[00:16:34] Zach White: Chase thatrabbit down the hole. I love it. We’ve got a character. We start following curiosity. We just explore this world that we live in. Look for the things that are pinging that are lighting up to go take action. Where do we continue to build? find your, find your tribe, find your sidekicks or mentors, find your, your, your people and I can’t emphasize enough how critical this wasn’t is still for me.

[00:16:59] Joshua Church: I mean, so much so where my podcast is called, find the others. It’s all about finding your tribe, finding those people that are there to support you and lift you up and are on the same page on the same wavelength that are going to help you pull, pull you forward. And that growth, because being in that mindset with those people, like it takes a team like life is a team sport.

[00:17:16] you need to find the. Coaches, You need to find those, team members, the people that compliment you, that people that push you. Like I love playing. I grew up playing sports. And so that environment, was so critical for development.

[00:17:28] Joshua Church: And it’s like, that needs to continue. And as human beings, we need that. Especially as men, we need that. So having that as part of the through line is. Utterly important. And otherwise, the journey stops when you hit the first roadblock for the first challenge or the first dragon pops up and you were like, Nope, I’m done.

[00:17:43] I’m dropping the control. And walking away when you got a squad with you, that dragon comes up and you know, you got to swap, it’s got your back. You’re like grim the sword out. And you’re like, all right, let’s go bring it on. So having the team and having the coach and the mentor and the wizard, if you will, the wise person, the helper to help you.

[00:18:01] Here’s a tool you can use, use this sword, here’s a great way to actually, instead of trying to face the dragon head on, like, here’s a great way to get to the Dragon’s blind spots. So you don’t have to get, you know, your, your head lit on fire by the dragon. I dunno. So the finding the squad as that’s the next step, for sure.

[00:18:19] Zach White: Why do you think. Hard for people and the world today to really build those relationships and find their squad, find their trap. 

[00:18:29] Joshua Church: No, that’s a great question, man. I’m, constantly exploring that, but I think, really what I think it is is that people are afraid to be themselves. Yeah. I think that’s what it is because.

[00:18:41] if you’re willing to be authentic to yourself and it takes a leader to be, to do that, to give yourself permission to be yourself. Like, when, when we are our own authentic self, we let that light shine through.

[00:18:53] Joshua Church: It gives other people subconscious permission to do this. So it’s like when we are stepping into ourselves authentically and when we’re in conversation with people we’re being real, we’re not, we’re not putting on a front and we’re not hiding. real connection happens regardless of interests, regardless of, upbringing, of race, of anything.

[00:19:11] it happens when you meet someone in their authenticity. I believe in an order that you have to be authentic and yourself and they have to be also. And so I think that the reason why it’s so hard now, because there’s, there’s a lot of covers on top of that authenticity that we have in our culture and our society.

[00:19:26] Joshua Church: And so it can be difficult to like get through it. W we just stay surface level. It’s like, we’re up here on the surface. Past the surface level. my friends always know it’s like, I don’t got time for surface. I hear around me. It’s like, there’s no surface level here. There’s zero surface level here.

[00:19:40] we got to go. We’re going deep into the things like I don’t give a crap about the weather. Tell me what made me cry yesterday? Like tell me about your dad passing away. Like, tell me about that. How are you feeling like truly what’s alive for you, what’s present for you right now. And for me, like that’s also a, something that I’ve decided for myself I’m going to be that person.

[00:20:00] Joshua Church: And not everybody needs to be that poor person or should be that person, but everybody should be a leader in whatever element that leads. accept the risk of leadership because it’s a risk doing. And it doesn’t get easier and it gets easier. Cause I just, I don’t care anymore, whatever situation I’m like now we’re going to go down dirt as level.

[00:20:15] All my friends can always count on me for that. because that’s just, that’s where I live and I love seeing people light up when they can subconsciously give themselves. 

[00:20:23] Zach White: I can tell you the, old Zack and I’m going to use the label engineers, Zack, but I, don’t like that. That’s the label. It’s just because I think that’ll resonate for people, but engineers, Zack is kind of puckering up at what you just said, like, whoa, you know, those type of relationships.

[00:20:41] Um, asking somebody about why they cried yesterday. I don’t want to have that conversation, can we just talk about technology, work on the project, and I think there’s something about. Willingness to be authentic. And in a way, I’m going to circle back to like the very first point of this video game that we’re living in that creating the character piece.

[00:21:01] I think for me, I, hadn’t been very intentional about discovering who I was and being decisive about who I want to be. So it’s harder to show up authentically when you haven’t done that work. kind of like, who am I? How do I even show up that way? I can just say. That would have been really tough back in the day.

[00:21:21] And even, even now under a lot of pressure, I feel that pull towards isolation rather than a default of leaning into my tribe and I know better, and I have an amazing tribe and I still feel that that kind of draws. So, maybe for the engineering leader, listening, just to acknowledge you and let you know, like, yeah, you may relate to that same challenge and it’s, super.

[00:21:46] Super powerful. When you do show up, go deep, build those true relationships with people who are going to have your back. When that dragon comes up in the game of your life and you don’t have to feel alone in those key. that’s huge. So this, metaphor that we’re painting. The thing that I can imagine, at least for, for me the first time I heard it was, it sounds nice, but there’s still a little bit of like, is this real, how does this play out?

[00:22:17] And so take us even further down the road here, like connect it to, what does it mean in your day to day? 

[00:22:26] it’s fun. It’s it seems a little whimsical. Right. But it’s like, how is this actually practicality?

[00:22:30] Joshua Church: the reality is that there’s no shortage of challenges, right? Yeah. I think you can probably relate to this as well, but one of the better reframed shifts or upgrades I’ve made in my life is shifting to see challenges as the opportunities and discussing. that’s something, I think that engineering leaders listening to this can relate to.

[00:22:54] And the idea of these software upgrades for shifts. That’s how I’ve often talking about it. It’s these little mindset upgrades of looking at something, the shift from fixed mindset to growth mindset is a little like shifts or nuggets that just up level you’re operating. Like we’re all, we’re all running.

[00:23:07] Some level of operating systems. Some of us are like on a super futuristic high-tech operating system. Some of us are. we’re trying our hunt and operating system on a smart, like on a smartphone operating system on a, on a flip phone. it’s all about, in my opinion, like how can we continue to up-level some of those things.

[00:23:23] one of the bigger shifts that I’ve made. embracing the challenges, and seeing them as opportunities. And it’s so freaking hard, man. and I say it every time I’m in the depths of one of those challenges. It’s always just like, yeah, it’s a lot easier to talk about it, but like now now’s the time to be about it.

[00:23:40] Joshua Church: Right. It’s like, it’s great to talk about challenges and slaying dragons when you’re feeling good and you got the princess on your arm, but like when you’re in the depths of it and you’re, you’re alone, it’s so challenging. And that’s the key again, I think where it comes back to having your squad or your team or your tribe with you is because when you feel like you don’t have that belief, which is easy to happen when you hit those challenges.

[00:23:58] Borrow belief from the people around you borrow the belief from your friends, from your family. If you’re lucky to have them believe in you from other people out there that you’re just getting to know, like, you can borrow that belief. If you can’t manufacture it yourself, because the people are there willing to give it to you.

[00:24:13] Zach White: I love this. And so I’m gonna re I’m gonna mirror it back Joshua, and you tell me if you would pivot or change any of this. If you see it in a different way. We look at our life, the things in front of us right now, and it’s really tempting to fall into the comfort zone and avoid challenging things 

[00:24:33] Engineers, love to go do gnarly things at work. So maybe you like the challenge there, but maybe you have a relationship in your life that’s fallen apart. And that challenge you seek to avoid, or maybe there’s, a boss or a leader in the office. That you don’t like, or you have a hard time getting along with, so you avoid conflict.

[00:24:50] try not to pass them in the hall. Don’t make eye contact, like whatever that is. But when I take this video game metaphor and I put that into my life and say, I’m for me, it’s it’s I got the legend of Zelda Ocarina of time in my mind right now. I just, I have to say that that is my carpet. So here I’m playing in 64 oh Korean of time.

[00:25:09] I can’t even imagine playing that game and. Going into the levels where you have to face the bad guys and actually do the hard thing. Like if you don’t do well, what are you going to do? Just like run around and shoot the arrows at the targets when some, some emeralds like that, that would get boring so fast.

[00:25:31] And so the idea of, Hey, the whole point, the whole point of playing the game is to go tackle these big challenges. Sometimes you’re loose. You’re going to get killed, you know, in the video game. But in real life, it’s like these ideas of what we think is going to happen. Th the losses you don’t actually die, 99% of the things I fear that I’m going to happen never actually happened.

[00:25:58] so if you take this lens to say, all right, what in my life would be a really fun, gnarly challenge to just, intentionally go and face that. That boss have some fun go for it. And if I die, I die, I get another, I’m going to go again. Like we’re just going to keep playing the game. Beautiful until we win for me that that’s a whole reframe around looking at my life now and say, well, where do I want to go tackle the next level?

[00:26:25] just game on. So is that, am I in the right flow there? How would you, how would you articulate every on. 

[00:26:33] Joshua Church: Yeah, that’s beautiful articulation brother, really, really well done. I think that’s, that’s accurate. It’s the whole point of playing a game like with my, with my roommates, like we were deep into this mindset and you kind of need to be, to get through some of the challenges that life throws.

[00:26:46] It’s helped me get through a lot. we always said like, this is the, like, the audience is at the edge of their seat right now. This is the best part of the movie, right? Like one of my buddies got laid off during COVID and that was the mentality was just like, he was in his mindset and he was just like, this is the best part of the movie right now. The audience is the edge of their seat. They can’t wait to see what happens. I think it shows just saying that, right. Let’s thinking about that. I’m like, that’s the mentality that he had developed and he was in. Watch me go tackle this, like, watch me take this in stride.

[00:27:15] this is the point, like you said, it’s the whole point of playing a game, but the challenge, like that’s the instrumental part the whole arc of any, any, any film, any story told is that that is the conflict is the challenge. The conflict is. As well, it leads to the growth. Otherwise we’re just staggering.

[00:27:30] Joshua Church: Right. go seek into it. And the other cool part about that is that, you know, you can’t hide it from yourself with it. Like, you know, you know, you can stop and think right now and think about like, what am I avoiding? What am I hiding right now? What, what am I holding back? What am I?

[00:27:46] Yeah. What conversation am I been putting off? What task I’ve been putting off and see if you can approach that with this reframe of like, all right, cool. Everybody’s got something in their mind right now that they’re thinking of, let’s go tackle that. Like, let’s go lean in and see what happens. let’s go find the edge with that. Like let’s build, leaning into that edge right into that discomfort because there’s growth there for you. That’s the feedback. And, it’s hard, but it takes time. And then it becomes easy to rewire that. Like, I literally view that way now, like, I’ll sit myself in the journal in the morning and be like, what’s up, I’ll look for those things that are like uncomfortable the things that I’m going to feel heavy, because I know that once those things are present, then I have something to work with and I can go into it and I can work with it and realize.

[00:28:23] Oh, cool. This is the nugget of insight that this thing was trying to provide me. It’s feedback mechanism, problems are there for a reason, like nothing exists without a purpose, I believe. And so something that’s a negative emotion, something that’s coming up. It’s like, it’s there for a purpose. And what most of us want to do is like, ignore it.

[00:28:38] And it’s like, oh, Where this door is blocked by a, by a boss on this video game level. Like I’m just going to go over to this level here, where I know every nook and cranny and play and shoot my arrows and the targets and just be safe over here. It’s like, no, you just got to get through that door and everything you want.

[00:28:51] Somebody was shot at that door. Most of us look to push it down. It’s like, let’s, let’s lean into it. Let’s go into it. 

[00:28:57] Zach White: It’s so fun. There’s almost an infinite number of little parallels, but you’re right. Like all the cool weapons or the coolest stuff that your character needs. to really reach the next level in life are on the other side of that.

[00:29:07] And you don’t get the opportunities to play the bigger levels and the bigger characters, if you don’t actually move through it. And I love this. Joshua. I want to take one other, look at your journey and life before I’ve run out of time with you today. And I really appreciate you geeking out on video games with me.

[00:29:24] It’s just really fun. I hope the reframes encouraging to that engineering listener, just to say, how do I maybe take life a little bit less seriously, but also get excited and get to the edge of my seat about the challenges that I’m facing really reframe and look at that as that’s the whole point.

[00:29:41] let’s go. Let’s try that. Yeah. You have a thing that I always have admired. It’s obvious from the moment I met you, and I’ve seen you describe it as that student teacher philosophy, your whole life is just revolves around this kind of, I’m a student, I’m also a teacher and how these two parts of you integrate.

[00:30:00] Zach White: Can you talk a little bit about what that means to be a student? Absolutely man. 

[00:30:06] I like to say I’m a professional student. I love learning and I will also, as we talked about, other than that was a character attribute that I decided I wanted for myself. and I allowed myself to uncover that.

[00:30:16] Joshua Church: AndI’m passionately curious about, a lot of things about all things and taking that deeper. So the way that I see the student teacher mentality is. I’m going to learn, but I don’t want to just learn, like for the sake of learning, because you know, the line I’m about to use enterprise says knowledge is empowered.

[00:30:34] Implemented knowledge is power, actualized knowledge is power. So it’s not just about learning or knowing it’s about actually doing so. I love this idea of learning integrating, doing, making it your own through your process. And then through the process of doing that. Maybe you have something to share on the other end of that.

[00:30:53] Maybe you have something to teach on the other end. Right. And through teaching, we learn and through learning, we teach. So it’s this kind of really cool cycle that I love to see. It’s wild to me that I was just gone down this learning rabbit hole of, breathwork and cold immersion.

[00:31:10] And now I have people coming to me as an authority and asking me for my input advice in guiding them through breathing journeys and gotten them through cold immersion. And obviously I have. Trainings and certifications and some science to back some of that stuff as well. but I have people coming to me on that now, which is really cool.

[00:31:25] And I realized like, wow through, but it wasn’t just like learning for the sake of teaching. And I think a lot of people get that wrong. So a lot of coaches, a lot of people want to like, like, let me just learn, let me get a certification. So then I can teach it to other people. It’s like, no, you’re missing the mark there.

[00:31:38] Well, why don’t you learn it for yourself? And then through the process of integrating, you’re going to be able to teach you that a whole different level, a whole different depth, like, yeah, I could, I could spit out what I’ve learned from reading all the studies and reading all the books and jealous things, but that doesn’t land as much as it looks.

[00:31:53] Through me sharing how I’ve integrated in my life and my story and the fine tuning of it. Because when you do that and you internalize it, you alchemize it, and you make it your own, it becomes your own process. So it’s like this machine, you like take these inputs in, you make them your own through actually doing anything.

[00:32:06] You get the benefit, you get results of it. And if that result is there, then inherently you’re able to teach it. If you’re able to teach it in your. So I kind of see it as this kind of machine and then through doing that and you learn more as you’re teaching. And so it just kind of constantly goes back.

[00:32:18] And the other thing that we like to say is that we also teach what we most need to learn. Okay. I’m sure you see this too in the coaching space, but it’s like, we often teach what we most need to learn. And so even more reason for us to learn it and like, not just learn it, but integrate it, embody it, be it be about it.

[00:32:34] Don’t just learn it, but live 

[00:32:35] Zach White: it Joshua. I’ve definitely made this mistake. Learning for the sake of teaching. I am really glad you made that point and I’m not sure I’ve ever made that distinction before, because the thing that I was taught was that feedback loop, that benefit of how teach.

[00:32:57] Helps you to learn it better. go back to college days and engineering school, you know, you’re in a physics class it’s really tough and you get with a study group and I would teach somebody the material to just help myself get better to prep for the test, you know, but it was always like kind of teaching as a, as a hack to get the result that I wanted.

[00:33:17] It wasn’t something that came from this place of. Learning for myself. It was like, Hey, I know that if I teach it, it’s going to reinforce it better. So I’ll get more of what I need for whatever outcome, but I’ve definitely had that experience where, Hey, so-and-so wants a particular piece of information.

[00:33:38] I’m on the hook to provide that either as a coach or as an engineering leader with my team at Whirlpool Corp. And so I just would go learn it for the sake of teaching it. I’ve got a team of direct reports that I need to make. There’s a new system or a new tool that they’re supposed to learn.

[00:33:53] So I just go get enough knowledge to implement or to impart that to them and kind of looking back, it’s like, no wonder that wasn’t as effective. And I know those are the places where I really beat my head against the wall, especially as a leader when I didn’t really want to learn it for myself, but my team needed to know it.

[00:34:13] And so I just, became this kind of conduit of the, 

[00:34:16] Joshua Church: you feel that it doesn’t feel good. Right? 

[00:34:19] Zach White: Totally. This is a really important distinction. go learn for the sake of yourself. Yeah. Then teach it as a way to, one share and be generous, but for, to enjoy the feedback loop, the benefit of that virtuous cycle 

[00:34:35] Joshua Church: and without getting and without getting too, too into it.

[00:34:37] Cause that’s a whole other rabbit hole, but I think this is a big part of the reason why our education system is. So flawed and messed up right now, especially in America is because the people that are teaching for the most part, like mass generalization here, right. There’s amazing teachers out there that are teaching from experience, but most teachers are just teaching from not actualized knowledge.

[00:34:58] They’rethey’re teaching from. Knowledge or theory without actual practical implementation of that. So you get some crazy ideas, you get some crazy things that are being taught and you’re not getting that firsthand experience it’s been different. And I know that anybody can relate to the difference of a professor.

[00:35:11] That’s teaching from the place that they like. They learned it to teach versus like the teaching from the real experience. There’s a whole big difference. 

[00:35:18] Zach White: Hmm. So maybe taking that idea of, of just knowledge versus the experience of the knowledge of. Dovetail that connected to the idea of, we have the thinking part of our brain and then the feeling part of our brand, or maybe I’ll say our nervous system, right?

[00:35:37] The thinking part of who we are and the feeling or emotional part of who we are. so one thing about you, Joshua, and you’re, you’re a director of operations. You’re a systems guy. You’re great at technology. You’re great. Connecting the dots in terms of systems and tools and, helping the business run smoothly as a director of ops.

[00:35:55] And you have a very strong aptitude and the thinking brain, like most engineering leaders who I coach and most people would probably listening to this, but you also have a great deal of mastery on the experiencing side and the feeling and intuitive part of who we are. how did you learn to integrate those two parts of yourself and how do you see the interaction?

[00:36:19] Like how do they play together? Pardon me has used my thinking brain to get into my feeling frame. Does that make sense? Right? Yeah. The same way that I see operations, as I alluded to earlier, like I love operations. like to see there’s like kind of two parts of operations.

[00:36:34] Joshua Church: These are kind of maybe the two parts of my brain. I love the business operations. I love solving problems. I love the operations of connecting systems and streamlining and automating and billing. Process out and making things easier and simpler for people like that. Business operations that I love the human operations, like how our mind works, like how we think, how we feel, how we breathe, how we move, how we relate, how we feel.

[00:36:55] So there’s this human operation side of things too. Cause the other day. We are running an operating system on the hardware that is our human being. using that, like these different frameworks, I’d apply these different frameworks that have landed and got me into touch with that feeling side of things and what that part of the body.

[00:37:13] So that’s certainly one approach that I could offer 

[00:37:16] in response to that, I think that’s a really encouraging answer. Times the, engineers, Zack struggled to relate to whether it’s deep, emotional intelligence conversations or, the idea of getting into my body as a coach. We talk about that a lot, really feeling and experiencing what’s happening in your body as a way to access the subconscious mind.

[00:37:40] Zach White: And talk about rabbit holes we could dig into, but I always had a lot of resistance to that because. I think I was taught, frankly, that this left brain, right brain or this thinking versus feeling these different parts of me, didn’t, you know, I had a strength as a thinker and that was that like, just sort of wrote it off.

[00:37:58] So to say, use your thinking brain as the point of access to go discover and learn and grow in the field. Intuitive part of who you are. That’s encouraging. let’s take our strength as engine. And into that space, you’ll just stop to work. Where would you begin? what what’s I 

[00:38:20] Joshua Church: know, I know exactly where to begin.

[00:38:23] You got it. You got journaling or self-reflection building the self-reflective muscles where you begin, because when you’re able to build this stuff, reflective muscle anytime I work with clients is exactly, this is where I start. I’ve worked with CEOs of literally billion dollar companies, not an exaggeration and people that are running pretty big companies.

[00:38:39] And the first place I always start, the people that want to get into they’re more of the feeling kind of body is with reflection or journaling. the five minute journal is a great resource to start with. if the thought of going pen to paper is just terrifying for you. It’s called the five minute journal is five questions, a couple of questions you answered in the morning and.

[00:38:55] It just help you start to prime and get into that self-reflective muscle. I like to start there and then build from there, but getting that self-reflected muscle, what starts to do is it starts to put some distance from, your self that’s yourself. There’s two stops. In the video game, your player, one that’s running around the video game and yourself.

[00:39:11] That’s sitting back behind the screen with a controller understanding that difference happens from self-reflect and self-reflective muscle builds that in my opinion. So starting that starts to build some separation and you can start to ask yourself, how am I feeling? Huh, let me think about that.

[00:39:25] Notice that language, let me think about how I’m feeling and you start there. And so you start feeling into it and it’s like, what happened yesterday? Oh, yesterday I was really excited or grateful for this thing. Okay, cool. I feel that, okay. I was really upset about this thing or this thing feels heavy right now.

[00:39:41] you’re just bringing some awareness and some connection to that. literally it’s like you’re in the interview experience. You’re starting in the gym with a two pound dumbbell, but pretty soon you’re going to be like bicep curling, 60 pounds. It grows very quickly, gotta stay consistent with it.

[00:39:56] Joshua Church: So starting with the journal and getting to that and starting to bring awareness to your feelings and starting to bring awareness of noticing what’s coming up. Is a, isn’t an absolute game changer. I have. One of my clients is actually dialing back as anxiety meds because he’s now able to have this tool set up just purely journaling, to be able to, process through some of these emotions versus before I’d go down to this like negative spiral and it’d be overwhelmed, but now he has the tools to deal with it.

[00:40:19] So he’s actually decreasing in getting off his anxiety meds. So there’s powerful tools. 

[00:40:23] Zach White: That’s the tool you got to start with. Okay. Journaling and self-reflection and man, what I love is that sounds so sad. And it is like to start there. And so a lot of times the engineer in me, I want to overthink this, like Joshua it’s, there’s gotta be more to it.

[00:40:38] Like tell me exactly what I need to say, what this all about. I was like, no, literally, please just start as grab the two pound dumbbells start curling. don’t worry about the next, five steps. think this is a real area of resistance and a blocker for engineering. Is, we want to see the whole solution from where I’m at today to the ultimate victory at the end of this.

[00:41:03] Like, I want to see that whole process right now. look, you don’t need that. All you need to do is this next right thing. And then the next step will reveal itself at the right time. So, 

[00:41:13] Joshua Church: and that takes a lot of that takes a lot of trust. Um, I would say next indicated step. When was the next indicated step I can take from here?

[00:41:21] What’s the next step? What’s the next step that’s present right now. Let me just take that and not get myself overwhelmed about the future, because then you can just totally suffocate, whatever you’re working on. It’s like, let me just take the next indicated step, show up, see what here.

[00:41:32] Okay, great. And doing that over the course of 18 months, I was able to launch a company kind of on the side with my cousin, because we just took it one little step at a time. And then it’s like, you look up and you’re like, oh, whoa, this is a real thing. Cool. So yeah, that’s 

[00:41:46] Zach White: Joshua. We could go on. But I think the next indicated step here is to land the land, this conversation with the place I always said, and you know this as one of the best coaches I know, but also as a director of ops and in the world that you live in, great coaching, great engineering, great operations, the questions we ask lead, the answers then follow.

[00:42:12] And so we want to ask great questions in our business, in our careers and in our life. So for that engineering leader, who’s listening, who wants to experience a greater degree of control in their life really stepping into that game and moving to the next levels and experiencing more. What would be the best question you would lead them with?

[00:42:35] I have four questions. my actual question I asked earlier on, which is what I first thought when you asked this question earlier, which is what are you holding back on? What are you hiding?

[00:42:47] Joshua Church: Be real with yourself. If you can’t be honest with yourself, how can you expect to be honest with anybody elseit’s hard being honest with yourself, but life becomes a whole lot easier when you’re willing to be honest with. It’s one of the hardest things and it’s, it’s, been so challenging for me as well.

[00:43:00] Like nobody’s immune to this, but being honest with yourself,that’s a powerful question. So I’m gonna park that there, but I do have to share as related to the journaling, because I think this might be helpful too, if people are like, okay, I want more on this there’s four questions that I’ve been asked. that I’ve been using for some prompts for myself and also instructing some clients with, for journaling. number one is like, what are you grateful for? not just like, oh, I’m grateful for my, my home or my family. It’s like feel into that for a sec.

[00:43:26] could be from passing memory, like feeling into something that you’re grateful for right now, like a moment of coincidence and experience sometimes in the light in your life when you were grateful for something. Reflect on that and feel that it’s something, a high vibration feeling.

[00:43:38] Joshua Church: You can feel that that gets you to the feeling body. And I always liked that. Also explore in my journal, what feels heavy for me right now? What feels uncomfortable? What feels heavy? What feels, what feels achy, what feels like I want to ignore, what does it feel? Right. And there’s usually always something that’s on 

[00:43:53] Zach White: your mind there.

[00:43:54] And I can take some time to get to it, but explore that. 

[00:43:57] Joshua Church: And then, The next few questions are one. What do I need to know? What do I need to know today? Ask yourself that question. It’s a great question to ask God your higher self spirit, the universe.

[00:44:08] However you want to say, what do I need to know today? Let’s see. I’m always surprised if sometimes what insights come through when I ask that question, when I need to know today. And then finally, the last question I love asking is how did God interact with me yesterday or what miracles that I witnessed yesterday?

[00:44:24] How did the universe interact with me yesterday? So I’m able to sit and reflect on my day Look for those synchronistic moments. Look for those opportunities that came up, looked for those sparks of inspiration or those insights, or the stranger that held the door open for you, or the support that the call that you got from a friend, or look for those moments of support and look for those moments of magic that are happening.

[00:44:46] It could be watching the sunset, whatever it is, because it’s such a beautiful thing to start to tune your awareness to do. this is magic right here. As soon as you start to do that, you’ll be seeing it more and more and in real time. So now I’m going through this and I’m just like, that’s a cool miracle.

[00:44:59] Like, heck yeah. Like that’s great. another way I’d like to ask it is where the, the winks from the universe, like those are those moments where you feel like the universe is like giving you a wink. It’s like kind of a cheeky. Like, Hey, I got you. I got you. It’s like, where are those winks?

[00:45:12] Let’s bring our awareness to that so we can appreciate that. And then we can see more of those things. We find more of those things and we realize we’re blessed and supported beyond belief. 

[00:45:20] Zach White: Amazing Joshua. This is a massive wink from God. For me. I haven’t had this immensely and I know people listening are going to want to know where they can find you and plug in to your journey, to your work, more of the incredible stories and, and writings and photography and everything that is Joshua Church and finding the others.

[00:45:38] Can you tell us where to get plugged in and get more sure 

[00:45:41] Joshua Church: thing? Instagram’s a great place. to start to get plugged in. So reached out, shoot me the DM two. I was other chat, at Joshua Dean church, I’m sure you’ll share it. And through that, and you find my podcast, you can find the new business that just launched.

[00:45:53] You can find, my website, all the other things and goodies. So that’s a good place. shoot me a massive reach out. And, uh, one 

[00:46:01] Zach White: of the others let’s connect. Absolutely. So. All the links up in the show notes, you can go to Oasis of courage.com, where you always go to find those.

[00:46:09] And, I do highly encourage everyone. if you have time and your podcast listening, portfolio to add find the others Joshua’s podcast is absolutely the bomb just great conversations and, uh, And the whole heartbeat of what you’re doing there and finding our tribes and the others around us who are swimming that same direction and playing the same game that we want to play.

[00:46:30] That’s it 

[00:46:31] Joshua Church: let’s do it. Let’s link up in the video game. 

[00:46:33] Zach White: Amazing. Joshua, thanks again for your generosity today. Just been tremendous and wish you a ton of success going forward, 

[00:46:39] Joshua Church: brother. I appreciate you brother. Much love to you, man. Thank you.

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