178: Without This Intention You Will Suffer the Certainty of Misery with Jeff Perry | Engineering Career Coach

[00:00:15] Zach White: So Jeff, since our last conversation back on episode 64, which wow, I can’t believe it’s been a hundred episodes since our last conversation, it doesn’t feel like a hundred episodes ago to me, but. 64. If someone didn’t, yeah, yeah. So have you, you have been very busy. In fact, part of why we’re here is you invested no small chunk of your life into writing an incredible book, the intentional engineer, which.

[00:00:44] Everything about the title, the topic and the, the work that you’ve created here, I love, and naturally, like we got to dig into this here on the show, but I love listening to authors. In general on podcasts, I think about Malcolm Gladwell on his master class, or Seth Godin gets interviewed all the time.

[00:01:02] And Robert Greene gets interviewed. And sometimes they’ll talk about their writing process. what’s their routine or their ritual around writing their books. And so none of them are engineers. Jeff, how does an engineer go about the process of writing a book?

[00:01:22] Jeff Perry: So like you, Zach. I’ve been creating content and, and writing and, and speaking and training and coaching for a number of years now.

[00:01:32] And I care deeply about investing in myself and getting coaching and mentoring and stuff to continue to help, improve me. And there’s one, program that I’m a part of right now. That’s really focused on building your thought leadership. And so writing books is a big piece of that for a lot of that community.

[00:01:51] And I had one of my mentors. In that, program that I was having a conversation with that in the course of a day or two with this kind of weekend immersion experience that we were having and they’re like, hey When are you going to write your first book and i’ve had in the back of my mind?

[00:02:05] I don’t know how long like yeah, there’s a book in me somewhere Anyway, but there was finally one of those that broke through and it’s like hey When are you going to write that book a few months from that point I had lined up to speak at an engineering conference for ASME, American Society of Mechanical Engineers, and they were also giving me like an exhibit booth, and so I had this moment of like, oh man, wait just a second.

[00:02:31] How cool would that be for me to show up to the conference and have a booth where I can talk to a bunch of people and have my book on the table. As well. Okay. So it was critical for me to not just have the idea of a book, but to have a forcing function and a purpose and an event that I was shooting for.

[00:02:52] Okay. And so then the end date was in sight, which by the way, it was only about three or three and a half months from the moment that I committed to writing the book. Wow. 

[00:03:03] Zach White: That’s a non trivial timeline for writing a book. Okay. Keep going. I’m excited. Yeah. 

[00:03:08] Jeff Perry: So, and then I said, okay, I’m going to do it. So then after I had that conversation with the mentor, I even walked upstairs and told my wife, I said, I think I’m going to write a book right now, and I think I’m going to publish it in about three months.

[00:03:19] She’s like, okay, yeah, I think you’re going to as well. and a few other stars aligned. I connected with another guy who has a 90 day publish a book program. His wife is an editor and she’s fantastic. And so I read that plan. I outlined everything I needed to do. And quite frankly, the first month was writing the first draft.

[00:03:43] The second month was editing and the third month was getting the publishing done. Um, now as far as curating, a book’s worth of content in a month, that sounds crazy, but mind you, again, I’ve been writing. Yeah, around a lot of these topics for years now. So it’s not like I didn’t have anything to start with.

[00:04:01] I wasn’t starting with a completely plain page and it actually outlined a number of books a few times. so part of it was re outlining. Finding the flow, finding the stories that I could tell, and then blocking out time virtually every day, to do the writing. And then what was that 

[00:04:21] Zach White: time block?

[00:04:22] Like, I mean, a couple hours, half the day, what were you investing for that? 

[00:04:26] Jeff Perry: It, it, it depended on the day. Yeah. Sometimes I could just get a couple hours in and, uh, sometimes I’d say, Hey, I’m going to really block out a chunk and do half a day. rarely would I do a full day. I don’t have that in me to like, just say I’m just writing or whatever, but, I could do two to four hours.

[00:04:43] That’s cool. The blocks that I would do. 

[00:04:46] Zach White: One of my mentors and coaches, a guy named Rory Vaden. I’ve been a part of his coaching for a while and he wrote a couple of great books and bestsellers and he’s, his team has helped New York times bestsellers launch their books. And he talked about writing. One of his books, he did the first draft in a week.

[00:05:04] And it was an interesting thing to hear him describe, like, you know, the, the content was already in me. I just needed to create the space for it to come out and hit the page. And you got his first draft done in a week. And I thought the same thing as you, wow, that would be really tough to just do nothing but right for a whole week straight.

[00:05:21] That sounds exhausting to me, but, um, and I know plenty of 

[00:05:25] Jeff Perry: people that do that. They go on a, Retreat or something, they lock themselves in and spend a week or two. And they say, I’m just writing the book and that’s it. usually they’re storyboarding or, or outlining something before they get there. But, yeah, when, when did the 

[00:05:41] Zach White: title, when the title hit you, was it there before you even started or was it something you created?

[00:05:46] Like a poof along the way, or at the end you had to go brainstorm the title. 

[00:05:50] Jeff Perry: Yeah. The main title has been around for a little while. the word intentional kind of emerged as a theme for a lot of the work that I’ve been doing around helping people make intentional career transitions and upgrades and, and also aligning that with living intentional life, It’s just emerged for me as a key focus word for, some of the work that I’ve been doing and some of the themes that I’ve hated to be reminded of, right. That’s one of the great things about doing some of this work is you get reminded of some of the great things you want to integrate into your own life.

[00:06:25] Right. And so some of the things that I even wrote in the book was like, Oh man, this is what I need right now. And so that’s fantastic. even before the book came out, I named my. LinkedIn newsletter, the intentional engineer newsletter. So that name had been around for a while and I stuck with it and then just.

[00:06:45] It’s an 

[00:06:45] Zach White: awesome brand around Jeff Perry and the work that you do. I’ve, I really see from the very first time we met and chatted on LinkedIn, however many years ago that was our last interview when I was on your podcast. There is a clear sense of intentionality and how you live and how you coach.

[00:07:02] And no question, your clients benefit from that in their own journey. it’s a great segue to, My impression of what’s in the book and the content and the arc that you’ve created for growth and how do you shift from what I might call a default life or life without intention to a designed and intentional life and career.

[00:07:26] And there’s so many things to unpack. And I do encourage everybody I meet, like just go get a copy of the book and read it. I’m curious for you, besides your own journey, You know, I, I needed this, and I’ve been through this, and this is sort of my life’s work on the page. Who else inspired the content? are there people you’ve worked with, or others who really played a big role in why what’s in the book is in the book?

[00:07:55] Jeff Perry: it’s a number of different forces, right? I mean, obviously when you write a book, you’re influenced by all the great books that you’ve read. And so I quote a whole bunch of other authors that I respect a lot from, a classic Stephen R. Covey to, one of my favorite quotes in there is from Steven Pressfield, who writes the war of art talks about resistance.

[00:08:17] And I, I love that. the chapters on mindsets were really. Inspired by one of my mentors, Ryan Godforsen, who does a lot of work on mindsets and vertical development, as well as a couple of books by Harvard psychologists, 

[00:08:32] Immunity to change by Robert Keegan and Lisa Leahy and the foundational mindset shifting research they’ve done over the last 25, 30 years. It’s just really fantastic. And so some of the concepts I drew from there and referenced there. So there’s just a few, 

[00:08:51] Zach White: yeah, along the way. Inspired pathways at you’re right.

[00:08:54] We’re, If we trust King Solomon, there’s nothing new under the sun. We’re all pulling from this idea of what’s been built before us. So mindset, you mentioned that word.

[00:09:06] Jeff, if you were going to put the chapters on mindset into, the, the fewest words possible, what is it that we need to begin with in our understanding of mindset in our career in life? 

[00:09:21] Jeff Perry: I had mindset in one chapter originally, and my editor was like, this chapter is way bigger than anything else you wrote.

[00:09:29] This needs to be two chapters. And so, okay, fine. so I’ve got a whole lot to say about this, but if we were to put it in a quick soundbite, it’s that our mindset fuels our behavior and our behavior fuels our results.you can put another word there, mindset drives behavior, behavior drives results, but who we are, which we might characterize your mind mindset or how we see the world or our opportunities and challenges and the people around us absolutely determines how we show up.

[00:10:00] How we interpret experiences or things that happen to us or for us. That’s it. That’s a way we can frame it too. and then dictate the actions we take, the way that we show up with people, the way that people can tell we’re oriented towards or away from them, and that’s going to determine a lot of our results.

[00:10:20] And so just mindset being a foundational piece to saying, Hey, I want to, I have a goal, I have something I want to accomplish. Okay, great. But if you’re only prescribing the actions you’re going to take, and not actually considering what about you and the way you’re thinking and seeing things needs to change, then it’s very unlikely that that’s going to be successful.

[00:10:42] So that’s a, that’s a quick start into the world of mindset. I 

[00:10:45] Zach White: really like the simplicity and the impact of that statement. So my mindset fuels or drives my behavior. And no engineer is going to argue with the statement that my behavior, my actions, then drive or create the results that I’m getting. So if mindset is the starting point of that, from your experience and the research you’ve done and how you coach clients, is there any distinction between what is my mindset versus.

[00:11:17] What am I thinking? 

[00:11:19] How would you articulate mindset versus whatever I happen to be thinking right now? 

[00:11:26] Jeff Perry: the answer is yes and no, mindset incorporates not just what is the conscious thoughts, but also our unconscious thoughts as well. So I can be thinking. About what I’m going to have for dinner tonight, or what I think about Zach white and the kind of guy he is or whoever else I’m talking to. And I can be thinking about that, but a lot of that internal stuff which we would normally characterize as mindset.

[00:11:53] And the lens I see that is often unconscious. We’re not even aware of it. And that’s one of the things that’s critical to the mindset transformation process. Is to gain exposure, to gain awareness, to see things and observe things that right now are completely unconscious. 

[00:12:13] Zach White: So, so can you walk us through that, that journey?

[00:12:16] So when you talk about that, that sort of mindset journey, I know in the book, you, you walk through these stages. Could you tell us what they are and maybe link it to an example an engineer could relate to? 

[00:12:26] Jeff Perry: there’s a model around changing or improving in any aspect, and I love to apply it to the mindset transformation process.

[00:12:35] it’s a four stage model. You can think about it just like a, kind of a step ladder. but stage one is a stage of unconscious incompetence. Okay. So if you identify anything that you want to improve in, here’s something very common with like leaders that you and I work with is like, Hey, I struggle with.

[00:12:57] Delegation, right? I was a fabulous engineer. I move into a leadership position and now I don’t have control over everything. So I’m going to micromanage. I struggle with that, that delegation. Now, at first, someone who’s moving through that transition may not be aware of just how much they struggle. it starts at unconscious incompetence. I’m bad at it, but I don’t know that I’m bad at it. Okay. Then there’s some moment of awareness. And we move to conscious incompetence and this is painful. It’s like, oh, okay. I realized that I’ve got some work to do here. Um, but I’m still bad at it. Okay. And now, and that’s the moment of opportunity where we can say, I’ve got work to do.

[00:13:41] I’m going to put in that work to do that. 

[00:13:43] Zach White: don’t downplay the importance of that, that moment to your point, it’s a painful moment, but I remind everyone, all change, all growth is preceded by awareness. If we don’t have that, somebody shining a light on our deficiencies, our gaps, our challenges moment, then the opportunity to keep climbing the ladder isn’t there.

[00:14:03] So I celebrate that moment in my life, even though it’s painful. Cause like, Oh, okay. I just went from stage one. unconscious incompetence to conscious incompetence. At least now I can do something about it. 

[00:14:16] Jeff Perry: Yeah. Now, now you can work with it, right? So now, like I said, it’s the moment of opportunity, right?

[00:14:22] And so now we’re at conscious incompetence. Now, a lot of the work and the improvement we do is conscious work. We’re literally firing our neurons and training our brain in a new way to think and do things differently. We need to be mindful. As we take action, such as, Hey, if I’m going to delegate differently, I need to think and believe and recognize what’s actually happening.

[00:14:49] Perhaps some of those things that were holding me back from that were beliefs that I had around. If I delegate fires are going to go off everywhere, right? Sure. I’m not the one controlling everything. 

[00:15:00] we’re talking about a engineering manager, relatively new engineering manager, or maybe an experienced one who wants to go through this process to improve their approach to delegation.

[00:15:11] But they might have some of those mindsets or fears or beliefs currently internally that are suggesting that if I don’t do this and I delegate this. Something’s going to go wrong, right? And fears that are holding us back. 

[00:15:28] So this process then of moving from conscious incompetence to conscious competence, we have to be quite mindful of thinking about Are those beliefs that i’ve been hanging on to before that have actually been preventing me taking these actions that could be more helpful Are they actually happening?

[00:15:47] Are those fears actually coming to fruition? Most of the time those fears are false. They’re unfounded and we can actually see when we’re mindful about it that Better things can happen when we do things in the right way And therefore that actually helps us when we’re mindful of what’s actually happening You To diminish those beliefs and those fears and those negative mindsets that were holding us back previously.

[00:16:13] Zach White: So this is that when you said yes or no to the idea of thoughts and mindsets, is it the same? The yes piece could be when I get to conscious incompetence and now I start to have harmony in some of my awareness of subconscious thoughts, et cetera. But. It’s not uncommon for there to be an unconscious mindset or thing holding me back that I don’t see.

[00:16:36] So while my thoughts are leaning in one direction, the actual thing driving my behavior is still hidden from view. And we, we would argue that that is a key component of mindset. That should not be ignored. 

[00:16:51] Jeff Perry: Absolutely. Absolutely. So we might have that first moment of awareness that says, Hey, I need to work on this.

[00:16:58] But then there’s still more work that needs to be done to get some of those unconscious actual beliefs, the root cause to continue to be more aware of and to fight against those over time. So to build the awareness that usually those limiting beliefs are fear. Sure. Just untrue.

[00:17:14] Absolutely. So look for the evidence. So this is a cool thing for engineers. You can actually look for the evidence. We want to run experiments, take action and collect data. What’s actually true. 

[00:17:27] Zach White: okay. First of all, I’m an engineer who doesn’t want to run a test. You know, let’s just go design a test.

[00:17:32] I think that’s a great frame for this Jeff. so tell me for you. is that the, the tactic or the approach that we want to apply when we think about climbing that ladder? It’s like, if I’m struggling to get to the next level, what’s the next test I need to run? And that’s, that’s sort of the game that we need to go play to climb this mindset journey all the way to unconscious competence, or how would you frame where that fits?

[00:18:02] Jeff Perry: I love that concept of. Can we take mindful action and consider it? We’re just running an experiment. We’re collecting the data and in doing so we’re seeing what’s actually true. And then that builds our mindsets in a way that eventually we believe those things in a more default mode.

[00:18:21] And that becomes instead of conscious competence where we have to think about it every single time we’re doing what we previously wouldn’t have done. Now it becomes a more natural state of being and who we are right over time. but it comes down to, to a degree, at least one way you can look at it is we’re, we’re just running experiments.

[00:18:38] We’re putting a hypothesis into the scientific method. We’re seeing what’s actually true. The data says, this is what I need to do well, that helps reinforce my belief about what I should be doing differently. 

[00:18:50] Zach White: What has been your experience with someone’s ability to climb that ladder and go through mindset transformation totally on their own?

[00:19:02] Do you say that’s. Not possible or it is possible, but hard, or it’s actually possible and quite easy if you know what to do. What would you say if someone wants to totally self study their way through mindset transformation? Is that possible? 

[00:19:18] Jeff Perry: I would say it’s rare. if not impossible and just to share some data around, different mindset levels, this comes from, I mentioned the book immunity to change by Robert Keegan and Lisa Leahy.

[00:19:30] They actually characterized some different adult development mindsets. Matches to adult development. And interestingly enough, there are a couple of childhood stages, but three main stages of adult development and. The vast majority of adults are in, they would consider stage one, which is a codependence state.

[00:19:53] And this is like 64%. Okay. Wow. next group is stage two. 35 percent of people are in that this is more of an independent state. I’m the master of my own destiny and I don’t need to be told by anyone else what to do. And I’m going to go, create my future stage three, which they would.

[00:20:14] Consider the highest stage of development we might call interdependent, where I can see dichotomies and, old competing ideas and different things. Only 1 percent of people of adults actually develop or are developed at that stage. they even did research on executives.

[00:20:34] It’s only 8% of executives and but 85% in that second stage. So there were a lot more developed from like the stage one or stage two. 

[00:20:43] Zach White: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:20:43] Jeff Perry: but even high level executives, like only 8%. when you look at data like that, it’s like, okay, just not very many people do it. partially because we’re unaware or unconscious, unconsciously unaware of this process.

[00:20:56] And it is hard work. And usually we need support in some form or fashion to help us get through that. 

[00:21:03] Zach White: I agree with that answer, Jeff. I’ve never by myself. Found like my breakthrough moments in my own mindset. I’ve never come because I just sat alone with a book or something. it’s always been in the context of great coaching, great mentorship, great community of people on the journey with me.

[00:21:21] And you alluded to it in your story about writing your book. if that mentor, those peers in the program hadn’t come alongside you and said, Hey, Jeff, when are you going to write your book? First book, like that was the catalyst moment. You probably don’t have that awareness that you’re ready now and you want to do it.

[00:21:38] And this is the perfect time without that in your life. And I’ve seen that for me too. You mentioned, I remember a story because, and the reason I thought of it, a lot of times we look at this work. In our careers, very results oriented. Plus we’re engineers and we just, we tend to think in objects and things and material context, but mindset work is about more than just bigger results at work and paychecks.

[00:22:05] it’s this becoming that you talked about in our last conversation and episode 64 so well, and you mentioned someone who did this mindset work with you and had some really interesting things to say about what it meant in their life. Would you recount that for us? 

[00:22:20] I, I think I call him in the book, Mario, I changed all the names from, from people, but, he was, uh, An experienced engineer. I think it was about 10 years into his career in the civil engineering side, and most people by that point in civil engineering are have have progressed to become project managers by that point.

[00:22:40] Jeff Perry: This is something that he wanted to do, but he just hadn’t gotten there for whatever reason. And so when we started working together, he was just on his way into a new job, not as a project manager, but as a civil engineering. It’s like, Hey, okay. I want to go into this job differently than I have before, 

[00:23:00] And I want to do this differently on the path to becoming a project manager. And so we worked a whole lot on his awareness of his mindset. One of the mindsets that I write about in the book that I love, part of the foundation for me deciding to become a coach was learning about the outward mindset from the Arbinger Institute.

[00:23:19] it’s an orientation or a mindset around how we relate and see other people. So the opposite of an outward mindset is an inward mindset is where I see people as objects that I can either use to accomplish my own needs or they’re in my way, or they’re just irrelevant and I don’t care about them.

[00:23:41] Right. How often do we see people and we just don’t care, or we only see them as obstacles in our way. Right. 

[00:23:48] Zach White: Uh, 

[00:23:49] Jeff Perry: or we just want to use them. Right. To accomplish our own needs. So that’s a self focused view and outward mindset suggests that we see people as people that matter, like we matter. Right. And so in talking about these concepts and some of the ideas around it, Mario realized that he was seeing people as objects all the time.

[00:24:12] He was only considering the conversations that he needed to do to get his tasks, get him done and move on his way. He wasn’t building relationships. That were meaningful at all at work, and he just was seeing people in really transactional ways. All of his interactions were transactional, after a few weeks, it didn’t take that long, but he started adjusting some of the conversations that he was having, the questions he was asking, and the ways he was building relationships with people.

[00:24:44] It’s like, man, I just feel like I’m, a better human when I show up to work and the way that I interact with people. And, you know, statements like that are just so fun to hear, uh, as a coach to be like, yes, yes, that’s, that’s what we want. We want to build some better humans out there.

[00:25:00] Right. That’s great. I 

[00:25:02] Zach White: mean, at the end of the day, Jeff. All of this personal development work comes back to that. You know, somebody wants promoted, they want a bigger paycheck. They want a bigger title. They want to work at a certain company. If you go do do enough wise, the five wise on all of these goals at some level, we all just want to perceive ourselves as that better version of ourselves and love the quality of our life.

[00:25:27] Right. It’s like, 

[00:25:27] Jeff Perry: yeah. And even fight against like some of the. Like, is it really about the promotion or whatever? Like I I’m all for helping people level up in whatever ways they want to. But I had an interesting experience recently with a client and I just got an email from him the other day who said, Hey, I am as happy as I’ve ever been in my career right now, and I actually have a lower title than I used to have.

[00:25:53] Right. But he changed some other things. He worked, did a lot of work on mindset. he’s worked on his health, both physical and mental because of some personal things that he was going through, and he’s just a lot more settled personally and finding joy and other things. That are not tied to getting the promotion or whatever.

[00:26:17] And I think he will actually perform well and get a promotion in this new job. I was just going to say the same thing. 

[00:26:24] Zach White: The happiness will drive bigger results. If that’s what he 

[00:26:26] Jeff Perry: wants. Right. And he may want to keep life simpler. Cause he’s been a high end engineering manager before, and now he’s back to an individual contributor role.

[00:26:36] He actually wanted to do that after taking a career break for a few months. Yeah. And that’s up to him. Either way, I’m pleased that he states that he’s as happy with his career as he’s ever been because he’s put other factors in play. 

[00:26:51] Zach White: So good. Jeff, if we were going to pick one or two more of these really transformational shifts in mindset, you mentioned an incredibly powerful one with going from an inward to an outward mindset and how we see people, which wow, engineers.

[00:27:08] We need that one. it’s so easy because everything in our world is a formula, an equation, an object, an idea. And so to really focus on seeing people as people, that’s huge. What are one or two others, places where if we can make this distinction and shift at an unconscious mindset level, it’ll have a big impact in our life.

[00:27:29] Jeff Perry: I’m sure you’ve had a bunch of, folks who have come on the show who have talked about the growth mindset. It’s probably the most common mindset principle that gets talked about. But if you go back to Carol Dweck’s, who’s the author of the book on mindset, that psychology of success, her Ted talk, just using the concept that she talks about from her Ted talk of the power of the word yet.

[00:27:58] I’m sure you’ve had this plenty of times. I’ve had it so many times where someone has come to me and said hey i’m not good at blank insert networking with people insert building relationships insert public speaking Insert whatever that thing is if they feel like i’m not good at this Right, and if we can at least insert that extra word and just say, okay Fine, that may be true for the moment.

[00:28:25] But let’s just add a growth mindset word and say Hey You may not be good at it yet, but that extra word adds that layer of, okay, but I can be, or I will be right. Yeah. And that belief that how things are today do not have to be how they are tomorrow. 

[00:28:48] Zach White: The whole growth mindset in a single three letter word.

[00:28:51] Yeah, I really love that. I really love that. Cause that you’re right. It sets an expectation of growth in the future. Yeah. when you say that, which is really, really powerful. Okay. The, the power of yet, uh, seeing people as people, not things. What’s one more, if we were going to throw out some really transformational mindsets, if you really embrace it.

[00:29:14] Where else would we go? 

[00:29:16] Jeff Perry: well, I would consider myself a recovering perfectionist, right. And, and, and perfection along the journey of a mindset transformation can be quite difficult because we expect to say, Hey, here’s the transformation I want, and yet I’m not quite fully aligned with that along the way, and so what I would share there is you just say, we need to trust the process, be patient and focus on progress, not perfection.

[00:29:44] Zach White: Yeah. 

[00:29:44] Jeff Perry: Along the way, 

[00:29:46] And invite that approach with the people around you who are watching this change happen and say, hey, this is my intent to go with the word intentional. This is the change I’m trying to make. I’m bringing you in on this, whether that’s a spouse or a partner or a boss or a coworker or whoever that is.

[00:30:05] Right. And say, this, this is the change I’m trying to make. It’s probably not going to be instantaneous. I’m going to do my best, but I want you to help me and recognize things along the way. And I appreciate any feedback, right. And to bring that conversation in and allow people to be part of that process with you, they’re going to be more, willing to give you feedback.

[00:30:26] They’re going to be more empathetic when you aren’t quite aligned with your stated intention and expectation. And they’re going to be supporters of you rather than you say, Hey, this is what I’m going to be. And. And trying to say, yeah, well, you’re not actually doing that. Like you said, you were like, you’re inviting that vulnerability and that feedback in a different way, instead of feeling like you need to be perfect.

[00:30:52] So progress, 

[00:30:53] Zach White: perfection. Yes, yes, yes. Jeff, this is amazing. there’s so much more in your book. I’m curious. You made a comment earlier in our chat. That’s sometimes when you’re putting that content on the page, you look back at it. You’re like, wow, that’s really what I need to hear. If there was one thing in the intentional engineer that you’re personally leaning into right now, it’s kind of the big challenge or it’s the area for growth that Jeff needs to focus on.

[00:31:22] What’s that place where you wrote it for me, but it was really for you. 

[00:31:28] Jeff Perry: Yeah, there’s a few places I’m sure. But the one that comes to mind. Is a is the concept of uncertainty and how difficult that is to move through sometimes, and I may have even shared this when we talked a couple years ago. I’ve been loving this quote, and I have to keep coming back to it over and over again.

[00:31:47] A quote by The psychologist Virginia Satir, I quote in the book, she says that many people prefer the certainty of misery to the misery of uncertainty. Okay, so all too often we stay in a place or a situation or a mindset or whatever that is because it is It feels certain. It’s what we know, right?

[00:32:12] Instead of moving through the change that is uncertain because often that uncertainty feels more difficult than even the dark places we’re in right now. And so leaning into that uncertainty is difficult for me in a lot of ways to say, I’m going to step out on a different realm. I’m going to try something new.

[00:32:33] I’m going to do something I’ve never done before. one of those things right now is I’m leaning into more opportunities for speaking and corporate engagements and training and workshops and things. That’s a new phase for me. That’s a different approach. and there’s a lot of uncertainty around it, but I’m excited about what’s possible if I can lean into that.

[00:32:56] Yeah. 

[00:32:58] Zach White: Appreciate you sharing that. I’m right with you. I hear you on that every, every next. Step towards our vision is a step into the unknown, and there’s no small part of the reason why Oasis of Courage was named Oasis of Courage, because it doesn’t matter how far you go on the journey. That next step is still a step into the unknown.

[00:33:21] It’s still uncertain. It doesn’t go away. I talk about getting out of the comfort zone a lot, which is not an uncommon message, but what you just said is so important because people associate comfort zone with something that feels good. Comfort is sitting on a beach in Hawaii, sipping Mai Tais and having a time of your life.

[00:33:42] It’s like, no, the comfort zone for a lot of people is the certainty of right. That you just described. It can be really. Bad feeling. It can be uncomfortable experience, but it’s your comfort zone. that’s such a powerful, powerful point you made. I love that. 

[00:34:00] Jeff Perry: I had another, mentor of mine who says new level, new devil.

[00:34:05] Right. Every time we level up, there’s a new challenge. There’s a new devil. There’s a new set of thoughts that are coming, coming after us. 

[00:34:12] Zach White: Incredible. Jeff, if somebody wants to grab a copy of the book and get connected with you and explore, not just mindset, but the entire. Body of work. That is the intentional engineer.

[00:34:23] Where’s the best place for somebody to go? 

[00:34:25] Jeff Perry: theintentionalengineer.com. They can find that has links to go grab the book in print or Kindle or, the audio books out now as well. The other thing that I created with anyone who gets a copy of the book. cause I don’t know about you.

[00:34:40] I read a lot of books and sometimes I don’t then go do something with that. I create a free digital workbook that creates a space for the end of every chapter and within the chapters, there’s a whole lot of actions, reflection questions, and activities to take. It’s a very action oriented book. And so created a workbook that has space to then go do those actions, do those reflections, journal, and write a lot, be introspective to do some of those activities.

[00:35:10] And so you get that at the intentional engineer, the intentional engineer. com slash workbook. 

[00:35:16] Zach White: Okay. Amazing. Yeah. You calling me? You’re calling me out, Jeff. It’s a lot of times I’ll read a book, put it right back on the shelf. Nothing happens. if I would read less and do more, I’d be better off. So really awesome.

[00:35:28] Grab a copy of the book. Happy engineer. Go get the workbook, go through this content. You will not regret doing that. We’ll put the links in the show notes as well as ways to connect with Jeff on all the socials. So please, please do that. Jeff, last time when we finished, you know, you and I talked about this a lot as coaches, questions, lead answers, follow asking great questions.

[00:35:51] Asking better questions is essential. If we want better answers and direction and an intentional life. And last time you shared. The answer of who do you want to become? And I just love that. We had a great chat about that. So what do you say today? What’s the question you would leave the happy engineer with coming out of this conversation?

[00:36:12] Jeff Perry: So if you identify who you want to become, just get even that much more clear around why that’s important to you.

[00:36:18] What are the factors around why that are motivating that at a deeper level that are saying that’s who you really want to become in your profession? And your family and your community and your faith all the different aspects of life you identify who you want to become But what are the reasons underneath that?

[00:36:39] go back to simon sinek start with why why is that important? 

[00:36:43] Zach White: Yeah, when 

[00:36:43] Jeff Perry: you can identify that then the motivation to become that person and do the actions that it will take to do that Will Be at least a little bit easier, still going to be at least a little bit easier. Cause you’re tied to that deeper motivation.

[00:36:59] Zach White: Why do you want to become, you want to become Jeff. Thank you for this. Super great to see you again. Congrats on the publishing of your book, writing it in three months, hitting an incredible goal. So cool and incredible content. Thanks for your generosity to share it here keep changing the world, man, one life at a time.

[00:37:18] Really appreciate you. 

[00:37:20] Jeff Perry: Yeah, you too, Zach. So good to be with you. Thanks so much.