188: Sabbatical Secrets – How to Take an Intentional Career Break with Laura Nguyen

[00:00:10] Zach White: I’m excited because almost 200 episodes of this podcast. Where we talk about how to be successful at work and creating balance and going for a life of success and happiness.

[00:00:23] And you know, how do we achieve what we want at work and be fulfilled, but we’re almost always talking about it in the context of what we’re doing at work. And then you and I connected and it’s like, yes, this is about success at work, but by not working, which is a really unique lens, your incredible book, career break compass.

[00:00:44] Navigating your path to a balanced life through intentional time off. And as an engineer in a past life before coaching, I just thought, wow, like that title resonates deep. There’s like a string, a cord that it just strikes. So before we talk about the book and the strategies and like why this is such a great idea, I’d love you to share with me about your own relationship to this idea of a career break.

[00:01:10] How does that fit into your story? Why are you so passionate about this? Just kind of connect the dots for me and your own personal journey. 

[00:01:20] Laura Nguyen: I love that question, Zach. So I think taking a break, taking a rest, taking any sort of reprieve was against every fabric of everything that I had learned, right? My dad’s an engineer, my family, are immigrants from Vietnam.

[00:01:33]  everything about my life was about grit and about pushing through and about working hard and earning that seat at the table and all of these things. and so, you know, I was always through school, always that straight A student. I was always involved in everything. in high school, was taking college credits, so I graduated early.

[00:01:51] really early from, for my bachelor’s program, I did a 15 month accelerated MBA program. I was always the youngest person in these leadership meetings. and the youngest person on executive teams and it got to the point where I said, I just don’t know why I’m doing this anymore, what’s next for me and is the role that is next for me a role that I want and I think a lot of it is the narrative in my mind around breaks and around hard work, we’re at such polar opposites that I never pause to rest in between.

[00:02:26] Zach White: And 

[00:02:26] Laura Nguyen: so that was really, the challenge when you think about a break and what that meant, it meant failure. And so there was a lot of unlearning I had to do in this process. 

[00:02:40] Zach White: I just had an onboarding coaching session with an engineering manager yesterday. And in our chat, I asked him. About why the goals he has were so important, and he made a comment.

[00:02:52] I want my kids to know how important hard work is in order to be successful. And it reminds me of what you just said, that we’re taught, we’re told, the way to fill in the blank thing we want in life. Is that grit, it’s that, hard work. So can you share, what’s the balance of this sort of work ethic, hard work is the way that a lot of us were taught and that culture applauds.

[00:03:23] How do you reconcile that as a valuable trait with what you’ve learned now about the importance of breaks? What’s the nuance or the truth between these opposing ideas? 

[00:03:34] Laura Nguyen: It feels like a paradox, right? It feels like they are at constant tension with one another because that’s how we’re programmed to function that you have to keep working, digging deep, and that’s how it works.

[00:03:47] But at the end of the day, you also need to have time for rest. I think about it like athletes, you know, you have a strenuous program, but you also include rest and recovery days. You think about it for software engineering, we run projects on sprints. We don’t try to bite off more than we can chew.

[00:04:02] We run it in sprints and we allow time for us to think about solutions to the problems and allow us to think through what that looks like. We also allow time for testing and validation. 

[00:04:12] Zach White: And 

[00:04:12] Laura Nguyen: so my mindset has always been about how do I approach things as an experiment. And a part of this process for us around the tension between overwork and grit and continuing to strive for our goals is also the other side to that, which is how do we prioritize rest recovery play so that we can also find joy in our lives and joy and creativity and what we’re doing, because that’s what makes our work even better, right?

[00:04:39] Is if we’re when our cup is full. 

[00:04:42] Zach White: Okay, so here you are, the young executive at the table, the go getter, the grind it out, work hard girl, and suddenly you come up against this question, do I want that next big thing right now or do I take a break? What was going on in your head at that time? How’d you make that decision?

[00:05:01] Laura Nguyen: my last full time role that I was at was VP of marketing. So I was leading a team of really high performance marketers. So we were building new digital products, right? Launching new advertising campaigns, generating leads and driving performance. And that’s, that is what fuels me.

[00:05:16] I love that dopamine hit of hitting those numbers. and I think what ended up happening for me, a few things compounded. One, four years earlier, I had my daughter having kids, I feel like kind of shifts your priorities and understanding is this is this the model I want to have for my child of taking, you know, really late night calls 

[00:05:37] Working on vacations and I remember she would say to me, mom, are you taking a call during our vacation this time? And I’d go, Ooh, that doesn’t feel good. Right. Or like, put your phone down, like pay attention to me. Like those little things start to compound. And then I think the really big area that hit me was someone on my team was diagnosed with cancer and had passed away within 15 months of diagnosis.

[00:06:00] And, she had kids the same age as we do. She had so much fire and, excitement about work and was so passionate about work, and we were, we were cut from that same for me, seeing such a short amount of time go by and seeing her health deteriorate was one of those where I said to myself, if, she had known, that she only had 15 months, would she have made the same decisions?

[00:06:29] And that really stuck with me. I remember when I found out about her passing, for weeks after that, I would just, grieve holding my daughter at night, just crying because I was thinking to myself like, is this what it is? Is this what it’s going to be for the next 25 years? and that was the shift of, I need to do something different and I don’t know what it is, but I have to do something different.

[00:06:54] Zach White: That’s really heavy. There’s a, a little voice and maybe it’s the voice of the work hard culture that pops into my head as you tell that story. Like, yeah, that pulls on my heartstrings, Laura. And that’s super tragic, but we can’t all plan our lives like we’re going to be diagnosed with cancer tomorrow.

[00:07:18] That’s not likely to happen, and so I need to keep working. What would you say to that objection, or that, maybe it’s a fear, frankly, that pops into our mind? 

[00:07:29] Laura Nguyen: Yeah, I think the big question that we have to ask is, you

[00:07:33]  am I living in alignment with what matters to me? Am I showing up in the world and having the impact that I want to have in my relationships, in my community, whatever that looks like? And is my, do my day to day actions align with that? Am I actually living that?

[00:07:51] and so in a lot of ways, You know, I talk about Career Break Compass as my story of taking, essentially a sabbatical. I took a leave of absence from my role, and I think a lot of ways when I work with coaching clients, it doesn’t have to be as long of a break. It depends on what you want. It really comes down to taking different actions today.

[00:08:13] And I think that’s the difference is when I work with clients of how can we make sure that we’re infusing these principles. Um, of this compass right into your day to day life, then suddenly they don’t necessarily feel the need to have an extended break or their break looks very dramatically different because they were able to refuel and recharge and focus on themselves in a different way and get aligned with who they are and have it be a part of their day to day life.

[00:08:40] Zach White: I like that reminder how we measure our life. What is success? What creates the life we want is an important part space to sit with for a while. So what did you actually decide for yourself? Then you took a sabbatical and for how long? 

[00:08:55] Laura Nguyen: as any highly logical high performer would do when I’m making a decision to take some time off, uh, I did all the research.

[00:09:03] I met with my financial advisor, I had the, Therapist lined up at the time I interviewed executives who had taken a sabbatical themselves. I did as much research as I possibly could on recovering from burnout, right? that is the, what am I going to be ready question, right? and I’ll say it took me 15 months before I hit go.

[00:09:24] And a part of that is because I needed to understand a few things, financially, what does it mean to be ready? and the biggest question came from that of how much time do I want to take off and how much money do I need to save? Very logically. the next question goes, what am I going to do with this time?

[00:09:40] Cause I can’t just, just sit around and watch Netflix. That actually is not going to help me in any way, shape or form. 

[00:09:45] Zach White: Not at all. 

[00:09:46] Laura Nguyen: Right. And so I said, all right, I need to do research around You know, I had felt like I had lost my mojo a little bit, like the things that I felt that I love by curiosity, I just felt like had deteriorated over time as a, as really a result of burnout and what it came down to was understanding the research around how to rewire our brains, but also really think about how do we.

[00:10:10] heal ourselves and shift our thinking and this deprogramming you and I are talking about. So I structured it as initially a three month break that then I added one more, of course. I did a month of play. I did a month of pause. I did a month of plan. And then I did a month of pursue, which is actually the execution component.

[00:10:32] And so when we think about play, The power of play, right, is around flow and curiosity and bringing joy back into our lives. And typically, when we’re in midlife and we’re at this kind of mid career component, we have put play on the back burner so that we can advance in our careers. 

[00:10:53] Zach White: Right. 

[00:10:54] Laura Nguyen: Think about it as leisure time.

[00:10:55] We’ve just kind of let go of leisure time and we just move to the grind, right? Yep. And when you do that for 18 years, you start to feel your body. Make have a shift, right? Where maybe you’re not as healthy as you used to be, right? You’re not as fit as you used to be. You’ve skipped meals or you’ve you travel a lot.

[00:11:14] And so You’re not in the shape that you want to be so that’s one component The second is what you and I just kind of shared which is on vacations. We don’t unplug anymore We are constantly tethered to our cell phones. We’re responding to emails. I was building board presentations on vacations. I mean, these are normal things that we say we just do.

[00:11:35] It’s just a part of that’s a part of our job. And that’s what we have to do. 

[00:11:39] Zach White: I sometimes will ask engineering leaders. I coach like, what are your hobbies? What are the things you want to be investing more time into as we succeed at reducing Your workload and becoming more effective, more productive going from 60 hour weeks to 40 hour weeks.

[00:11:55] And we set these intentions, these goals around how they work said, Hey, so when you get that 20 hours back, what are we going to do with it? What are your, what’s that hobby you’ve been longing to spend more time on that you haven’t. It is extremely common for them to say. Well, I don’t have any hobbies at all right now.

[00:12:14] I let everything go, especially when I had my first kid, then they for sure were all gone I’m not sure what I would do first, really common for somebody to say that. So this idea of. Play and reconnecting with the things that create passion and joy and energy outside of doing work and what I wanted to hear your perspective on Laura’s.

[00:12:38] Some engineers will tell me, and I can relate to this, even what I do now, but especially back when I was a young engineer, there is passion and fun. And like, I like my work. It’s fun to do the work. sometimes. Especially at the beginning work feels like, like it is play. And so we justify the dropping of all those other things because work is my passion.

[00:13:01] How do we think about those as different things and why the play component outside of your vocation is so important? 

[00:13:07] Laura Nguyen: So like work is fun because it ties to certain things that you enjoy, right? I love problem solving as engineers, you all probably love problem solving, right?

[00:13:16] So you see a problem. How do I, how can I. Look at, different ways to the angles for it. How do I map out and draw different scenarios? That’s the fun part of it. That’s what kind of makes our brains click. And so Finding different ways outside of your vocation that allow you to also problem solve can allow you to find joy as well.

[00:13:37] for some people, it’s gardening, for some people, it’s doing Lego sets, right? If you’re a builder and you like to do Lego sets, do that. for some people, it’s screaming at the top of their lungs on a roller coaster, like whatever that adventure looks like for you. It’s about leaning into that 

[00:13:53] Zach White: and 

[00:13:53] Laura Nguyen: your comments around, people not knowing, when you ask them the question, what do you do for fun?

[00:13:58] I hear the same answer every single time I asked that question as well. And a part of that was the catalyst for, I built a new, you know, an AI app essentially, where you can include what city you live in or what city you’re going to, and we’re going to build out your plan for what you can do, whether it’s a weekend trip, a week trip, or a two week trip that you want to look for.

[00:14:18] And your entire itinerary is going to be built for you because. The question, the barrier that people have is thinking of what to do. 

[00:14:25] Zach White: And if 

[00:14:26] Laura Nguyen: we can remove that equation for them and say, Hey, look, like here’s three things you can do, go do them now. it makes things just a lot easier. It’s the, uh, decision.

[00:14:36] Zach White: Yeah. The old physics nerd in me, this is, static friction is greater than sliding friction to get moving is always harder than to just let it roll. And so that’s awesome. Get things started. So these four parts of your. Sabbatical plan as it were, I want to come back to this because it’s a really beautiful flow through the piece so play and then the second was to pause.

[00:15:00] What’s that all about? 

[00:15:01] Laura Nguyen: when you think about taking time for reflection, gratitude practices, meditation, things that allow you just to slow it down. Right? Like we’re so often just sprinting to the next thing. and slowing down could mean celebrating a win. you know, in your planner every day, write down what you’re celebrating that day.

[00:15:22] you know, for me personally, I went on a meditation retreat. I had always been intrigued by meditation and breath work. I just couldn’t figure out how to do it. I couldn’t go to maybe three minutes meditating. And I went on this meditation retreat and I was going four hours and it felt so good.

[00:15:38] Right. Like getting out of your head at this, that this busy mind, that Dr. Romy talked about in one of your previous, interviews and shifting into our body so differently, because I think so often we don’t listen to what our body is telling us, we’re not listening to. The fact that we have GI issues or constant migraines or, inflammation and, all of this cortisol that then elevates because of all this chronic stress.

[00:16:02] We’re not listening to our bodies. And when it came to breath work, it’s as simple as what is our breath telling us, right? The first thing we do when we enter this world is we breathe. The last thing we do is breath. And so when we think about the in between, our body is trying to tell us, are you having a hard time letting go?

[00:16:22] If you can’t exhale, are you having it when you’re breathing in, and you’re having that resistance? Are you having a hard time receiving? what is our breath telling us? And I had to learn that so deeply. And I had a wonderful, breath work coach, an instructor, and it has dramatically changed my life.

[00:16:39] Zach White: I’m a huge fan of breathwork. We do a little tiny taste of breathwork in my coaching program for engineering leaders, and it’s not uncommon for them to at first tell me this is really awkward. this is strange. What are we doing? But I love what you said. And the other thing I’ll build on, not only is it the first thing we do when we enter the world and the last, when we leave, but I remind people, how much time do you spend thinking about.

[00:17:06] Your fitness and your exercise plans. And we buy programs and we buy, buy gym memberships and we do all these things for fitness. But how long can you go without working out your whole life? If you want, you know, it’s like, there’s just no pressure. Okay. What about food? You know, we spend a lot of time thinking about food and what to eat, how to eat healthy, et cetera, super important for your health and longevity, but how long can you go without eating days?

[00:17:29] Long time, maybe weeks to be honest. Depends on the situation. We’re like, you can go a long time without food, but how long can you go without breathing? It’s like minutes and you’re done, it’s game over. it’s like, wow, this is the single most important thing that keeps you alive of anything that’s happening.

[00:17:46] And we don’t spend any time thinking about it. So I didn’t, didn’t intend to turn this into like a plug for breathwork, but I really agree with you. That’s a powerful thing to include as a life practice, but to really focus on it in a time of taking a break. What a great decision. That’s awesome. 

[00:18:03] Laura Nguyen: I love that you love breathwork too.

[00:18:05] And I think one of the differences, right, is because it feels awkward, it’s about how do we schedule it into our day. And when we think about play, pause, plan, and pursue, the key is, The panic that people feel in pause, right in play, you’re moving. It’s what we’re used to. You’re constantly doing something right in pause.

[00:18:23] There’s a difference because all of a sudden you’re looking at your calendar and it looks free for the first time in your entire life. And what we have to make sure that we’re doing in pause is creating, taking essentially an Excel sheet and looking at your 30 minute blocks and blocking time, just time blocking how you’re including pause into your day to day life is really, really key.

[00:18:46] That could be breath work. That could be meditation. It could be journaling. or it could just be taking a walk. 

[00:18:53] Zach White: Yeah. You 

[00:18:53] Laura Nguyen: know, a slow leisure walk. making sure that we’re just infusing that into our time period. It’s the unlearning process of being busy.

[00:19:01] Zach White: Yeah. Okay. That word panic. This is so true. And I wonder if you could explain what you’ve discovered. In why that happens. And just as an anecdote, one of the challenges that many of the engineering leaders I work with will go through in our coaching is a two hour solitude and silence pause. You just block two hours, no journaling, no listening to podcasts.

[00:19:29] Just go sit in nature somewhere. And just look around, observe, listen to your thoughts. just be there for two hours, solitude, silence, two hours, a pretty high percentage of my clients. dread this activity, that panic, feel like, what am I going to do? This is going to be awful. And the first 10 or 15 minutes, they get into that panic state.

[00:19:52] Why does that happen? 

[00:19:54] Laura Nguyen: first off, I love that you do that. So good. so I think the reason. That we put ourselves into such a busy framework, is that it’s so tied to our worthiness. If I’m doing something, then I feel like I’m adding value. If I’m planning something, I’m adding value.

[00:20:13] Activity starts to define our worthiness and in the absence of that, then fear arises because then it goes, well, am I worthy? And if I’m not, then what is, this, all of our insecurities start to flood in during that time. I tell all of my clients that pause is the hardest of all of the piece.

[00:20:37] Zach White: Yes. 

[00:20:37] Laura Nguyen: Um, and it takes a lot of practice and it’s something I continue to work on. Constantly. I just, I went, I just got back from another retreat two weeks ago and that one was dramatically different than my past ones. It just, that one shook me. I’ll be honest Zach, like it was a very different experience for me.

[00:20:55] and you never stop learning about yourself and your own introspection and where you want life to go and how, what value you want to create on this planet. I think it constantly shifts. And so I think a lot of people are looking for purpose. 

[00:21:12] Zach White: Yeah. 

[00:21:13] Laura Nguyen: my definition of purpose, I think of it as an equation.

[00:21:15] I think of it as curiosity plus practice equals purpose. and as I think about that, it goes, okay, that means that I have to be open to what the pause is telling me. And then I have to lean into it and try something different. And then inherently what will show up is does this feel good or not. 

[00:21:36] Zach White: If you go back to your personal four month break, and you got to that pause time, did you feel the panic, and then did this sense of worthiness being called into question, were you conscious of that, and you actually felt that, I’m not worthy in that sense?

[00:22:01] In those words, like, would you have thought of it that way? Or what was your own experience with the discovery of that? How did, cause this is profound. I think that’s so true, but I’d love to know your own journey into that. Did you feel it? Were you aware of it? What was that like? 

[00:22:15] Laura Nguyen: Yeah. Somy first entry of pause and going on retreat was me leaning into that curiosity.

[00:22:21] It was fun, right? Like I thought of it as a fun practice. and then it became very much of a shaking kind of moment for me of recognizing something is different. That’s happening here. And I need to start paying attention to that. So when I got back from the retreat, it’s actually when everything started shifting for me because now I’m home and I’m trying to figure out how to infuse these practices.

[00:22:45] So here’s what happened. I started to panic and I went to LinkedIn and I started scrolling and I had so much anxiety at the pit of my stomach 

[00:22:59] Zach White: that I 

[00:22:59] Laura Nguyen: had to shut the app out. and I recognize I wasn’t ready to figure out what I wanted to do next. So I had to put it away and I would meet with friends and something didn’t feel right.

[00:23:10] And so I said, okay, I need to reflect on that and identify what is a mess for me. started, it’s essentially a process of elimination is when it ended up happening. and then I think the other piece in pause that really started when you talk about, did I have an awakening of the question of worthiness?

[00:23:28] I think I had a recognition that in pause, I felt most helpful when I was doing something for someone else. when I was running a team, I was helping my team grow. If I was coaching someone, I was helping them. And my, all of my value came from that piece versus just existing. 

[00:23:50] and I don’t know if I would have defined it as worthiness. I think I would have defined it at the time of these are my insecurities. 

[00:23:58] Zach White: Okay. Yeah. I think of it 

[00:24:00] Laura Nguyen: now, Two years later, I think of it now as Was I really just pondering my own self worth? 

[00:24:08] Zach White: Mm. We could do like a whole podcast series on that one piece.

[00:24:16] Okay. I know. There was a point you shifted into planning. How did you know you were ready and what does that third phase look like? 

[00:24:26] Laura Nguyen: Yeah. So I gave myself permission. Really in each month, right to go. I’m not shifting away from pause because it’s uncomfortable to go into plan because my nature is to plan like that is where I that’s where I live and thrive.

[00:24:40] and so in plan, the difference really came down to let me just explore. What are the avenues? Of how I want to define my life and what are the ingredients of my life that are going to make me feel good. And then how does that translate into a vocation, does it mean that I go back into a corporate marketing executive role?

[00:24:59] Does it mean that I go do something else? So I made a list. I basically built a Weighted scoring Excel sheet that was then defined by like, does it align with my core values? What does it align with my inherent strengths? Does it generate revenue? And what’s the startup costs, right? So this is my logical brain and Excel sheet format.

[00:25:18] And then I basically. Spent, a week letting any idea that would come to the table, an idea could be opening a smoothie shop, buying a farm and having goats, moving, moving to Hawaii, right? 

[00:25:33] Zach White: I’m living 

[00:25:33] Laura Nguyen: on a cruise ship for a year. Like I like the 

[00:25:35] Zach White: goats idea. I definitely signed me up for the goats.

[00:25:39] Laura Nguyen: Right. Right. Okay. So 

[00:25:40] Zach White: no idea is a bad idea. No idea is a bad 

[00:25:42] Laura Nguyen: idea. Let it all flow in. Right. Right. And, you know, the practical ones, of course, I’ll float in as well, which is go get a corporate marketing exec job, shift into consulting work, be a fractional CMO, do coaching, write a book, do you know, diversity, equity, and inclusion work, things that I kind of care about and feel me.

[00:26:00] And so I took all of those and I scored them and I ranked them and I said, okay, I’m going to take the top three and I need to find out what information do I need to know to make a decision. 

[00:26:13] Zach White: Yeah. 

[00:26:13] Laura Nguyen: And so for each of them, I scheduled basically interview meetings with people who were in those roles to get Intel, 

[00:26:21] what are the things I need to think about? And then I said, okay, what is my body telling me when I’m having these conversations? Is it causing anxiety or is it excitement? Cause they’re, they’re different. and then I leaned into it and I said, I’m going to do a experiment. I’ll pick.

[00:26:37] the, let’s say the top one, do a 90 day experiment and see how it feels. And if it feels good, then I’ll keep going. And if it doesn’t feel good anymore, then I’ll shift. 

[00:26:47] Zach White: I really love as an engineer, the sort of disciplined pursuit of the information because time does not help us make decisions.

[00:26:56] Information helps us make decisions. And then to pursue with that test engineering mindset, like, Hey, the one decision can be corrected by another decision. It’s okay to pivot if in 90 days, I’m not happy with that. And of course we know the, the finish line, at least at this point, but is there anything that I missed in between?

[00:27:17] So did you go straight into the coaching and the book writing and everything that is your genius now in supporting people in this practice, or was there another stint before this? 

[00:27:28] Laura Nguyen: so I actually have two arms of the business. So soul solutions is my performance marketing consulting side. I love what I recognize for myself was I still love the data.

[00:27:39] Like there are components of, you know, different roles that didn’t that necessarily fuel me, but the day to day analysis work driving performance and organizations did feel me. Now you have to do it sustainably. That’s the key is I don’t really believe in. Peak performance because that means that there’s a high and there’s a low, I believe in sustainable growth, right?

[00:28:00] And so it’s about how can we have a trajectory that is sustainable for people that doesn’t burn a team out. So I do executive coaching on that side for organizations to help really their marketing teams continue to grow and flourish and hit the goals that, they need to grow their companies.

[00:28:15] But in addition to that, the other side, especially for career break compass in the book is helping high achievers. Like, you and I try to figure out how to live lives that are both fulfilling and also be able to do great work as well because they can have, you can have both. It doesn’t have to be a binary decision.

[00:28:36] Zach White: So I think you mentioned earlier, it took you 15 months of deep research before you were able to pull that trigger and make the decision to take a career break. So I’m going to shamelessly and selfishly. Steal some coaching from you to shortcut that for myself or anyone else who wants to explore this.

[00:28:56] So you mentioned to heck, it doesn’t always have to be four months. career breaks can look a lot of different ways for different people. So would you be willing to share with us, with all the clients you’ve supported and now that you’ve written your book and you’re so well known for this.

[00:29:10] kind of niche expertise of how do you do a career break? Well, get the results you expect from it and then catapult into your future. First of all, how do you make that decision if you need one? And then what are the different flavors of this? You know, if you were going to describe. Different types of breaks people take just in brief.

[00:29:30] What does that look like? 

[00:29:32] Laura Nguyen: Yeah. Great question. so a couple of things, your point. So the first one is in a coaching engagement to your point, I do not want people to take 15 months. I would say that I probably spent 12 months. dragging my heels and spinning into indecision and really three months doing the planning.

[00:29:47] So what I try to help folks do is let’s accelerate your process in an eight week time period, right? So the first thing we have to do is let’s understand the fundamentals of, why do you want to take the break? let’s really get clear on what is your intended outcome. So we’ve got to set goals.

[00:30:02] Is really first and foremost the second goes into. All right, let’s talk about the tangibles, which are, let’s take a look at your, what’s your financial plan? So how much are you spending today on the last six months? from an expenses perspective, and if you wanna take a three month break, then we need to take a look at how much do you need to have saved logically to be able to do that.

[00:30:21] I want to make sure that people don’t, put themselves into a financial crisis because of this situation. Like we have to do it in a smart way. and then the second piece goes into typically at that point, they go, oh, it’s going to take me maybe a year to save to be able to do this. So then we go.

[00:30:37] How do we start to infuse bite size breaks into your day to day life now? 

[00:30:43] Zach White: And so then we go through 

[00:30:44] Laura Nguyen: the peas, right? And we go, okay, here’s your structured plan for the next three months of what’s one play activity you’re going to be doing every week. How are you infusing pause into your daily practice?

[00:30:58] And then also each week we go through a planning process of, okay, how did your week go? what are we going to make sure that we pivot on for the next week? So it was an accountability to that. and then pursue right is like, let’s go try new things like let’s go test and try new things. typically what I have found, it’s really been interesting for me as a part of this coaching process, right?

[00:31:15] Is 60 percent of the people I work with actually feel like they don’t need to take a break afterward because they feel refueled and they’ve actually changed their routines and behaviors. And that’s actually the goal. The goal is, is that we can manage burnout in a different way, to infuse bite sized breaks because we’re being intentional.

[00:31:33] That’s really the thought, right? Is an intentional pause for an intentional life, which just means that pausing doesn’t mean it has to be a year or two years. A pause could potentially be making sure that you’re making it a part of your weekly routine. 

[00:31:49] Zach White: What’s the typical break length then of the clients you work with who do decide to go on some form of sabbatical?

[00:31:57] Is it still in this three, four month range or what have you seen people deciding? 

[00:32:01] Laura Nguyen: so some folks will actually take a leave of absence from their organizations or take a mental health leave. That typically for, for U. S. folks is a 12 month leave.

[00:32:09] week time period. so that inherently is basically a quarter, right? What’s that? It’s a three month flow. I would say that’s pretty common for folks who are taking that type of leave. there are folks who are planning more of a longer term break. These are more of your sabbatical explorers that are taking a full year off.

[00:32:27] I typically, to be honest with you, don’t work with that audience of folks. I work with folks that are more in a three to four month window, because they get to a spot where they’re looking to reenter. And so they’ve taken their, they’ve taken the time off and now they’re looking to reenter and reenter.

[00:32:43] Differently than they did before. And so I’ll help clients with that transition as well as here’s your time off during your three months. And then here’s your first hundred day plans to be able to onboard in a role that feels good for you so that you can be successful, but also sustainable. 

[00:32:59] Zach White: The last quick thing that stands out as a big fear I would have facing a break in that coming back phase.

[00:33:10] What do people think? about me coming back from this three month break, and how do I message this in an interview and what damage is this going to do to my Long term career growth. help me relax. Laura, I’m freaking out here. Like what, how am I going to get a job again with all these other people flooding the job market who did not take breaks?

[00:33:30] And I did. And then long term, is this going to hurt my growth opportunities? Now that you’ve coached so many people and you’ve talked to so many folks who’ve done this, what’s the real story about those two beliefs that it’s going to be hard to get a job again, And that it’s going to hurt my long term prospects.

[00:33:48] Laura Nguyen: that is the most common fear that we hear, In terms of coming back to work and what does that look like? That is all rooted in. Lack of self confidence, right? And it’s really rooted in that whole component of my worthiness again if I took time away then am I gonna be able to reenter in the right way?

[00:34:06] So one of the things we work on in the program that is different for folks who go through a career break and don’t have a plan that is the deepest challenge for them is coming back from that self confidence because they feel like They are really struggling during that transition, but the for the folks that actually have a plan as a part of the plan, especially in plan and pursue.

[00:34:27] We work a ton on rebuilding your self confidence. So we work a ton on what are your inherent strengths? And then we do a ton of mock interviews because by the time that you’re in those conversations, it should not be the first time that you talked about your career break. and so what we typically do is.

[00:34:42] We talk about, yes, this is the time that I took off. Here are the things I learned from it. And here’s what I did during that time period. And then you pivot immediately into what value can you deliver to the organization? It doesn’t need to be as big of a conversation that we think it needs to be. And that is the challenge is it’s all in our head when we’re having those interviews.

[00:35:03] And typically it is a one sentence response. That you can then quickly pivot over into the role and your excitement for the role and now you’re ready refueled Recharged and ready to go. 

[00:35:16] Zach White: I love that don’t make it a big deal if you make it a big deal It’ll feel like a big deal to that interviewer on the other side of the table if to you it’s An obvious catalyst to your success and being ready to crush it in this job.

[00:35:29] And here’s why I’m the perfect fit. 

[00:35:31] Laura Nguyen: Yeah. 

[00:35:31] Zach White: Then that’s what they’re going to experience. 

[00:35:33] Laura Nguyen: Yeah. And I think one, one ad I would have, cause I know you had a recent, podcast also on layoffs. And so when you think about, I think it’s, as of July, 2024, there’s been 1. 1 million people that have been laid off in the U S right.

[00:35:46] Huge number. So when we talk about career breaks, I don’t always talk about it as a. Career break by choice. Sometimes it’s by circumstance. And in those situations, rebuilding your confidence and having a plan for your time off is even more important because it feels like you took a hit. But the truth is, is that, a door opened for you that now you can think, really think about things differently and go through the same piece, right?

[00:36:11] And make sure that you’re having fun again, be intentional about pausing and really be thoughtful in planning how you want to pivot into your next role. 

[00:36:18] Zach White: That’s awesome. So if someone is mid break by choice or by layoff, and they’re really struggling with this. Is it okay for them to still connect with you and just pick up right in the middle of that challenge and start working on those next steps?

[00:36:34] Is that something you do? 

[00:36:35] Laura Nguyen: Yeah, yes, I do. Half of my clients come to me when they’re actually in a break because they’re struggling in that break. 

[00:36:40] Zach White: Okay. Right. Yeah. I mean, it makes sense. I think I got this. And then you get into that, that panic and it’s like, ah, who could help? This is awesome. Okay. Yes. And then that last piece long term from what you’ve seen, has anybody.

[00:36:55] Concluded that the break damaged their permanently their long term prospects, or would you say that’s just not true? 

[00:37:03] Laura Nguyen: That’s it’s not true. If you don’t allow it to be true, it can’t be a narrative in your mind, right? Think about, the CEO of Guardian, the previous CEO of Guardian Life took a two year break.

[00:37:13] and she talks about how she went and she en, enjoyed family time. She took her kids on college tours. She, traveled a bit and then she was ready to take on her next role. there’s CFOs, I’ve got folks on my website that are, you know, CFOs who took time off to be able to reset, recharge, enjoy a break between our next, c-level role.

[00:37:34] Yes, I think that’s the thing is we’ve. Think in the same thing with consulting, right? a consulting project by nature is in the same way where you have an initiative or project. You are sprinting during that project. The project is over. You take a pause, you recharge and you go on to the next piece.

[00:37:51] It doesn’t always have to be a constant sprint, right? Like we have to make sure that we’re infusing that. And I think that’s the thing is giving ourself that permission to recognizing that pauses career breaks, whatever it might be. Career gaps are we need to start normalizing them because we all have them is the reality of the situation, especially with the nature of layoffs being so normal.

[00:38:15] Zach White: One of my coaches. I’ll never forget when he said to me, Laura, I asked a question about how, he said, Hey, how do you do that so easily? And he replied to me, Zach, it’s easy to do that when you live in a world where it’s easy to do that. And I don’t even remember what the specific question was, but it was basically a mindset response.

[00:38:37] He just said, Zach, It becomes easy when you allow it to be easy. Like you just need to shift and live in a world where that’s allowed to be easy. And I think about the same way. A career break only hurts your longterm career if you live in a world where that’s what is true for you. But if you shift your mindset, look, it doesn’t have to be that so good.

[00:38:55] Laura, I can imagine, especially with. One point, whatever million people looking for work. Many of them are engineering leaders and people who would be tuned into this podcast and really need to consider a break or are in one and need your support. Where can people go to get connected with you, your book and your coaching work?

[00:39:16] Laura Nguyen: Yeah, great. So my, you can find me on my website. It’s Laura no end. co. so I’m sure we’ll put it in the show notes just for spelling purposes. my book comes out November 12th and I’m doing a pre sale bonus right now. So that will include online, online community access, access to all of the tools in the book.

[00:39:33] You’ll get the first chapter of the book early. We’ll also include group coaching. And then if you’re doing the pre order as well, we’ll be able to do, I’m going to enter you into a drawing for some one on one coaching time, which would be super fun. 

[00:39:45] Zach White: I’m really excited about this. So happy engineer, go out to the website.

[00:39:50] We’ll put the link in the show notes, grab a copy of the book pre order. If it’s after the book’s released, when you hear this, then just go buy a copy right now. Sorry, you missed out on the incredible bonuses. Laura just mentioned, but for everybody who’s listening now, as it releases, go take advantage of that.

[00:40:06] even if you’re just curious. you’re not sure if a career break is for you, but you’re feeling burned out, go check out Laura’s work. It’s tremendous. Laura, you know, extremely well as a coach all the work you’ve done in your career, questions, lead answers, follow. And if we want better answers in our life to be happier, to find that fulfillment, that balance, then we need to ask better questions.

[00:40:32] So what would be the question that you would lead the happy engineer with coming out of our conversation today? 

[00:40:41] Laura Nguyen: um, borrowing a little bit, right. Of Clayton Christensen’s, great book. Cause I love it so much. what are the ingredients that are going to define and measure a life for you?

[00:40:54] What does that look like? And then let’s go figure out how to build it. 

[00:41:00] Zach White: What are the ingredients? Happy engineer. Chew on that. Connect with Laura. Laura, thank you so much. I just want to acknowledge you for your tremendous work, your expertise and the people you’re helping in a real way, changing their lives, extending their lives and helping them find that fulfillment.

[00:41:16] I appreciate you being here. It’s been awesome.