190: Receive the Best Performance Review of Your Engineering Career with Curtis Mitchell

[00:00:10] Zach White: So Curtis, we have a long history together, but before we get into the work we’ve done, the path that you’re on, let’s put a little bit of the, who is Curtis as an engineer on the table here?

[00:00:24] Set some context. So really quick. What did you. Study and where to begin your engineering journey. 

[00:00:32] Curtis Mitchell: well, I studied math and physics in school and went to the university of North Texas, graduated in 2008. So jobs are hard to come by, especially for like a new graduate. 

[00:00:43] Zach White: that was a tough time for new grads.

[00:00:45] I, I feel you. Same here, man. 

[00:00:48] Curtis Mitchell: math and physics are like fascinating subjects to me, but there’s not a lot of immediate applicability for those skill sets unless you go into graduate school. so I looked all over Texas for work. I looked in like the oil business or my. Grandmother calls it the oil business and, 

[00:01:05] Zach White: uh, Oil business.

[00:01:07] Yeah, man. Okay. 

[00:01:09] Curtis Mitchell: Looked in like wind energy. So I was kind of like geared towards an energy job. It’s what a lot of my family had worked in and seemed like a natural fit given like the physics background. And I had an aunt and uncle in the Bay Area in California, and they invited me to live with them.

[00:01:24] So I ended up moving out here where I still am now and landed a job with an energy consulting company. So we would do, projects around energy efficiency, energy savings programs that different utility companies government programs would implement. and through that, I would do a mix of.

[00:01:44] data analysis and software engineering and then some field engineering. cause I was from Texas, a company would like to send me to the central valley because they wouldn’t complain about the heat and the summer in California and work on a rooftop in Fresno or Bakersfield and install data loggers on air conditioners and such.

[00:02:01] and then just being in proximity to Silicon Valley, got more and more interested in software and, eventually dropped out of that. Job to join a coding bootcamp, which is still an early type of business. at the time and went to one called hack reactor and, studied web development there, and then ended up jumping into the startup land.

[00:02:23] So worked at a couple of different startups. They all had some sort of like analytics or machine learning focus to them. so did that for several years. 

[00:02:33] Zach White: Where are we in time at this point, Curtis? So you got out of school. Didn’t have the traditional mechanical engineering degree, come out with the more pure science background, and then you just end up in proximity to this.

[00:02:47] So when you went to that bootcamp, where are we? How many years later was that? 

[00:02:51] Curtis Mitchell: This is 2013 now. 

[00:02:53] Zach White: Okay. 

[00:02:54] Curtis Mitchell: Yeah. So got a couple of years of job experience and learned a little bit about coding and software on my own, but the bootcamp really like accelerated that it was like three months and worked like.

[00:03:05] 60, 80 hour weeks just cramming knowledge and doing lots of hands on projects that you could show to employers, you know, at the end of the program. and did a couple months of job searching after that before I landed my first job. 

[00:03:17] Zach White: Really cool. Just while we’re on this boot camp. Piece of your story.

[00:03:22] What do you remember about that decision to step away from your career path and jump into the coding bootcamp? Was that an easy decision? What went into you saying, I want to shift my focus and go all in on software and, computer science and computer engineering, what was your thought there?

[00:03:41] Curtis Mitchell: two key things from that Initial job was the software projects. I found, like, the most exciting, in the sense that you could just tell a computer to do something and then, changes would appear on the screen. And that could be something that could do, 1 of the programs I did was doing energy modeling for houses.

[00:04:00] So if I change the variables, I’m like, what types of windows it has, what types of installation it has and just. Yeah. Fiddle with some digital knobs. You can create some like pretty interesting model outputs. So I found that aspect of software really exciting. And the other part was like, the jobs pay really well.

[00:04:19] There’s a lot of opportunities at startups and big tech companies. So I thought, this seems like a no brainer. I should just jump directly into this. 

[00:04:27] Zach White: That’s interesting. Part of why I’m curious as we move forward, and I know more of your story, Some of these big points of decision that come up in our career paths and how do we face that?

[00:04:38] And so, okay, you go to bootcamp, bust it for, these long weeks, grinding, picking up new knowledge, and then do some work in startup land. When did you end up then transitioning into NASA when we met? 

[00:04:54] Curtis Mitchell: At the start of COVID, I was at the last startup I was at, and, a couple months into the pandemic, they laid off about 10, 20 percent of the company.

[00:05:04] I forget the exact amount. So I was in that layoff, It was a little bit fortuitous that I’d also recently applied to another boot camp. This 1 was way more passive. It was like, set your own schedule and, passive online material.

[00:05:19] So I did that. And it was machine learning focused, I think machine learning took what I knew from web development, and software implementations. And satisfied the same kind of itch that studying math and physics in school did.

[00:05:32] So it brought those worlds together for me. once I kind of went through that program while being stuck at home and searching for new jobs, I found this, this position at NASA Ames and, or NASA Ames Research Center. I’d kind of had this assumption that, NASA and maybe even government jobs more generally, you just get directly out of school and then you have them for life.

[00:05:54] And that’s how that’s how you get those. but I saw this open role with the defense and it’s a contracting firm that works with, defense companies and NASA specifically. And they had this role, for, Software implementation to integrate drones and air taxis into the air traffic control system.

[00:06:12] And I thought, well, that sounds really awesome, but my job search at the time, I was just applying to lots of interesting things I found. seeing which one sticks and he didn’t want to put like too many emotional eggs in one basket. So even though like 12 year old Curtis would have been freaked out in the best way possible to get a job at NASA, it was just kind of like, well, I’ll apply and see what happens.

[00:06:33] it. And it’s a little bit like, um, the dog that catches The fire truck or whatever. yeah. Now, what do I do with this job?

[00:06:42] I was nine months or so in, and that’s when you and I started connecting. 

[00:06:47] Zach White: The dog catches the fire truck. Yeah. Not now what here I, that’s a really interesting, it’s funny, but it’s a truth that I think a lot of engineering leaders face and the leaders you and I know in our mastermind at the oasis of courage, many of them face that same thing, we have a goal, we have a vision.

[00:07:04] And something that sounds really amazing to do. And we work hard to go learn more and grow and figure out a path. And then one day, if it happens, you’re super excited. And maybe that lasts for a day or a week, maybe a month where you’re still excited. And eventually, at least for sure, by nine or 12 months later, it’s like, Huh.

[00:07:28] Sometimes it’s nine or 12 hours later. You’re like, wow, now what? So nine months later, you and I connect. And why don’t you tell me from your memory, what were the things that started to create some of that uncertainty, the questions that you were facing at that point when you and I first connected? 

[00:07:48] Curtis Mitchell: in retrospect, I think a lot of those kinds of feelings and Pads of thought had started several years before that, even, the last couple of startup roles I had, I’d struggled at different points with performance.

[00:08:01] I even had some like performance reviews periods, which, you know, is a terrible feeling. You feel like you’re a bad engineer or bad employee or teammate or whatever. Sure. But then in this role, I was doing really well, and I kind of found, like, well, this is something I want to continue at, and how do I, like, really capitalize on that?

[00:08:24] And I’d started working with this team and putting different processes in place. I kind of had this, Sort of management, but not quite management role. and that was new territory for me. And I think all those things together and really just ultimately wanting to do the best job I could, but not really having what I felt like were the tools or the vocabulary to do that.

[00:08:48] Yeah. I think that’s what made me open to get some career coaching and like really take my career to the next level. 

[00:08:56] Zach White: So performance, a sense of not living into. The best performance you wanted to be right. We’ll come back to that in a sec. Cause I think that’s an interesting itch that a lot of people faced.

[00:09:10] Like I could be doing better or more. I’m not where I, I should be at this point. Right. And then this idea of management starting to become a factor. It’s like, okay, I’m great at the IC side. I can do the work, but what about this whole other side of growth? If I remember right too, there was a little bit of.

[00:09:31] Yeah. How do I bring my, my itch for machine learning and being at this edge of cutting, you know, bleeding edge technology and some of the day to day grind of a role that wasn’t always including that kind of work. And there was some, some discontent to that. Am I right in that memory? Yeah, 

[00:09:50] Curtis Mitchell: definitely. 

[00:09:52] Zach White: So, Coaching.

[00:09:55] You’re like, hey, I want to go pursue this. I want to get help. Tell me a little bit about your thought. why was coaching even on your radar? Was there anything that you were skeptical about at that time? I’m curious, because not everybody turns to that. And you did. So what was your thought? What was going on around that? 

[00:10:12] Curtis Mitchell: I think what’s apparent in my career is that there’s several different points where I’m like willing to take a jump or leap of faith. the coding bootcamp, like completely transitioning my career. And,So I think that was part of it is just being, this is a new thing I haven’t tried and maybe it’s worth just seeing how it goes.

[00:10:32] related to that is that because of like the bad performance I’d had in the last couple of jobs, and not really knowing. At the time, maybe what fully caused those and how to prevent that from happening in the future. I mean, I know now part of it was just burnout, not being able to advocate for myself and communicate to my teammates or managers when I’m struggling and how I might get the help I need.

[00:11:00] there was just like enough signs along the way that I needed to change something up and try a new tactic when it came to career development. 

[00:11:09] Zach White: What were the biggest things that shifted then? So you and I got together, we had the conversation said, yeah, this sounds like the kind of thing we can really hit the gas and create some meaningful change. And we spent 90 days together. You know, development and career and life focused coaching. If you go back to that stretch, what were the levers that really moved the needle the most for you personally?

[00:11:38] Curtis Mitchell: biggest one is just being able to, talk about myself, honestly, to my team. I’d had this mentality up until then that the work should speak for itself. you just assume if you put in the work, then the work gets noticed. And then your aim and your managers recognize that and, reward you or tell you what to change up.

[00:11:59] if there was one or two other levers, what do you think those were?

[00:12:03] you know, I think when you hear the phrase career development, you kind of think, Oh, that’s the stuff I excel at. And I, in my nine to five parts of my weekdays and life is, is the rest of it. And I think through the AWACO program, one thing I learned is that a lot of the ways you can excel at work can also help you excel at life more generally.

[00:12:24] and not just my, my job itself. 

[00:12:27] Zach White: it’s true that as engineers, we tend to think career development means more mastery and my ability to write code or to understand architecture to fill in the blanks.

[00:12:39] Technical skill set. That’s the bucket we tend to lean on. And then maybe as you enter into management or higher level roles, you start to add some leadership and management skill sets. But this idea that if I Excel in the skills that create success at work, it will be the same in my life. And the opposite that when I master some things in life that may feel on the surface, like they have nothing to do with work.

[00:13:08] In fact, those are some of the biggest levers for growth in our career. So definitely let’s first talk about work speaking for itself. This is one of my hot buttons. I really appreciate that you mentioned it because somewhere along the line, we build this belief in engineering as I seize. That work should speak for itself.

[00:13:29] Just, just do great work. You deliver the best results and that’s what will open the door to your growth. So Curtis, why do you think that’s the paradigm? Why do we get into that place in our engineering careers where we. Either want that to be true or are told and taught that that is true. Where do you think that comes from?

[00:13:51] Curtis Mitchell: Yeah, I think it can come from a couple of different places. Yeah. there’s a, an impression that engineers tend to be like very bookish and introverted types of folks. And I think sometimes that this mentality of letting the work speak for itself, it just happens to be. A crutch that lets those types people with that type of personality lean on like, Oh, I don’t really have to talk to people.

[00:14:16] I can just do my work and I’ll get the recognition. I need, I think that’s maybe part of it is that it feels a little bit easier when you can just go in to your desk or log into your computer and do your work and you’ll be rewarded for it. And that’s sufficient. I think that’s a big part of it. I 

[00:14:34] Zach White: mean, that, that basically describes college for most engineers, right?

[00:14:38] Go, go hide in the library, go hide in the computer lab, sit in your dorm room, hammer out the code, do the physics problems, get the a move on 

[00:14:49] Curtis Mitchell: and you’re done. 

[00:14:50] Zach White: Yeah. Yeah. So you’re right. It does become a crutch. it’s an easy belief to hold because it enables you to stay in that comfort zone of just do the work.

[00:15:02] don’t engage. So you overcame that. You got to a place where you said, no, I’m not going to just sit back. I will become that voice, that advocate for my own work. So how do you do it? Tell us some of the things that specifically, the actions that you took, or what courage did you have to build in yourself to go and become that voice since the work doesn’t speak for itself?

[00:15:27] Curtis Mitchell: when I started the Waco program, I was coming up on my first annual review. And so I was in this position of selling myself and my skills and what I’ve done for the organization up to that point, those types of big questions.

[00:15:40] and then I just, reflected back again on the, the ways my performance was lacking in the last couple of rules. So I knew I didn’t want to repeat that. And so the other mentality I had to change was that you can talk about yourself and what you do for others and through, for your employer, Without having to feel like conceded or like bigger than, you can really just say honestly, like what you’re contributing and what you’re working on.

[00:16:14] it turns out that your team and your, , employer appreciate that because they’re not looking over your shoulder at the work you’re putting in day in and day out. Ideally, they trust you to do the work and you’ve got to tell them like how you got there. 

[00:16:28] Zach White: I love that. Sometimes as engineers, we get stuck on, yeah, but Curtis, like, what do you, what do you say?

[00:16:34] What did it, how do you do it? We love the how, so let’s nurture that itch for just a little bit or scratch that itch. what does that conversation sound like? Is this you and you’re in that one on one performance review time, just talking through the work itself, like what you did, or is there something different about how you.

[00:16:55] Approach that conversation. So give me the inside scoop, Curtis. If I’m like, hey, man, how do you have that conversation? Sounds like you’ve had this shift, this transformation around how you advocate for yourself. What does that really look like? What are the things that you would say? What are the key points that make it happen or even key phrases or words you might use specifically?

[00:17:17] Yeah to succeed there. 

[00:17:20] Curtis Mitchell: a big part of the AWACO program that I took on was this idea of checking in with yourself and doing that on a regular basis. And I don’t have to tell you, but we’ve got this idea of like annual, quarterly, weekly, and daily rocks and goal setting. and I think through that, I started to really keep better track of the work I was doing along the way.

[00:17:45] So I would keep, Daily or weekly notes on here’s what my goals are for this week, and, you know, get to the end of that. Have I accomplished them? If I didn’t, what should I do differently next time to to make sure I can accomplish them or do them more efficiently or whatever? and through that, I was able to, the Build for myself a better map of the work I did along the way and, how I got to the different milestones that I was achieving through the course of the year. That first year NASA. 

[00:18:13] Zach White: Love that. Yeah. It’s amazing how many people sit down once a year and then say, Oh no, I need to figure out. what I’m going to type into the system for HR for my performance review, and they don’t really even remember what all they did.

[00:18:27] So yeah, better tracking of what you’ve delivered and the lessons learned along the way is a big asset when it comes to performance cycles. so that’s a great tip. Like start now paying attention. To the work you’re doing, reflecting more and tracking that because it will serve you not just for your own growth, but it’s useful for these systems and tools that are required in the company.

[00:18:55] What about the conversation itself? You know, you’re sitting with your boss, laying it out there. Here’s what I’ve done. How do you do that without coming across like a selfish, arrogant prick, like you were talking about earlier, what’s the key to that delivery of the results without being perceived the wrong way?

[00:19:13] Curtis Mitchell: My contract employer, the way they would do their performance reviews is they have a form you fill out and I think this is pretty standard. what have you done this year?

[00:19:20] What are you hoping to do next year? Where’s your growth? Those types of questions. So I was able to just fill out that document and just literally put in what I did this year. How I, got. Some of the points I remember that I, cut out a lot of extemporaneous meetings that my team was having that just seemed to take up more time than they needed to.

[00:19:38] I put in a couple processes in place to start reducing the number of like breaking bugs we introduced into the code base. And just writing down points like that, and then presenting that to my manager, and then just having a conversation about those points. It just, you know, like I was just conveying history, essentially, here’s what I did.

[00:19:59] Here’s what I’d like to do in the future. Here’s what I think I can continue contributing to those types of questions. I didn’t really have to sell myself. I was just saying what was on the document already. And that made the conversation much easier. 

[00:20:13] Zach White: So what happened? I remember you shared with me later, I got this really great outcome, but describe, you know, here, you’re putting all this in front of your leader.

[00:20:23] What was the result? 

[00:20:25] Curtis Mitchell: Uh, well, I got the best performance review of my career at that point, in and of itself, that was amazing. And then to do that in my first year at NASA was, it just felt like I was, On a rocket ship for, 

[00:20:39] Zach White: that’s so good. 

[00:20:41] Curtis Mitchell: It writes itself. 

[00:20:42] Zach White: Yeah, it really does. All right.

[00:20:44] Let’s ask the skeptical question. And you’re not going to hurt my feelings as your coach. you want to be completely honest, did we just put the right information in front of your leadership and it was perceived as top performance because of how you messaged it was a good marketing or.

[00:21:06] Did you also measurably improve your ability to create value for the organization as a result of the work, in your opinion? And so it was a, you know, a bit of both. Like I actually do feel like my performance lifted because of the work that I was doing, the way I was approaching it, and I could message and market it better.

[00:21:26] Or do you think it was honestly just by saying this in a new way and having the courage to do so, that’s all it took. 

[00:21:35] Curtis Mitchell: Yeah, I think it was both. I think that that first review, when I got put into this kind of project manager slash individual contributor role, I think a lot of the, um, successes I had were quick wins.

[00:21:50] I was essentially. Taking a lot of things I knew had worked for some of my previous teams and bringing them into this particular team at NASA. And I think those really paid off and, working with you and the other AWACO folks just helped me communicate that better. But then from that point, I think some of the more, medium term skills I was growing through the program, like keeping track of monthly contributions and goal setting.

[00:22:22] Those kind of helped me keep that momentum going forward. And I think even now I still use a lot of those and they help, keep me checking in with myself. I’m like, am I doing the things I want to do? Am I contributing, good work to my team and my organization? So, yeah, I think it was a little bit of both for sure.

[00:22:43] Zach White: Whew. That’s good. I was, uh, it wouldn’t have mattered what you said, but I’m glad to hear that. So talk to us then about this career and life as not separate, but in fact, it’s all together. It’s all life. And as I develop, as I grow, it impacts every area. What were the things you actually noticed happening?

[00:23:06] Outside of work and what was the link? How would you describe this? If your whole life balance as we just use the, that phrase within the OAKO universe, but what was that like for you and any key memories of places you saw that growth and how that happened? 

[00:23:21] Curtis Mitchell: like, honestly, setting and coming to the realization of what, like my personal values are.

[00:23:29] that exercise in particular, and I still, I put an alert in my phone where every day my values pop up. And it’s I have one memorized, but you know, it’s still good to see it there and to start the day with those in mind. that exercise kind of helped me, it’s kind of weird, it’s something you see every day, but it really does impact how you think about the longterm.

[00:23:52] Zach White: Yes. 

[00:23:53] Curtis Mitchell: Um, and I think through that, I was able to carry some of the motivation I was getting from doing like really excellent work in my job and take that into my personal life. And I think it kind of made the way I communicate with my wife that much stronger. I think it made the way I think about my, friendships that much stronger.

[00:24:16] Just being, taking a little bit more. Deliberateness and to daily life, I think is really the way it like Impacted pretty much everything I do to some extent 

[00:24:30] Zach White: Did you have any awareness Uh, or had done exercises on core values prior to us doing that together 

[00:24:40] Curtis Mitchell: I tried Different things here and there but none of it ever quite stuck.

[00:24:45] I tried daily journaling You For a couple of weeks and then it just didn’t take, but not for any particular reason I can think of besides it’s like hard to sink in something like that every morning. I had tried a couple of different things like that along the way, but I think just, I think the other thing is, an exercise like the one you’ve set up, makes you do several different things along the way.

[00:25:09] And it’s easier to, uh, Kind of pick the parts of it that work for you because of that, as opposed to something like very specific, like daily journaling. 

[00:25:17] Zach White: Sure. Yeah. The reason I asked Curtis, and I would love to hear your perspective, having done it and now seeing it every day, continuing to get that value from deliberate focus on your core values.

[00:25:30] A lot of times if I’m just out chatting, I’m at a networking event or I’m meeting somebody. And if they ask me, you know, what are the kinds of things that. You work on and coaching with engineering leaders. They’re fascinated by this idea that all these introverted technology people are coming together for coaching.

[00:25:49] And they find that like, Ooh, really interesting. Tell us about what that’s like. And sometimes I’ll mention that one of the most powerful exercises for a lot of our clients is this core values and life purpose exercise. And a lot of people are very surprised by that. Like what a core values exercise is something that actually.

[00:26:09] Engineers would get into and get value from it. That’s really soft. It’s really fluffy, emotional. I’m surprised to hear that they like that. And the truth is, and you’ve experienced it, that out of the hundreds of leaders who’ve gone through the blueprint. When our team asks, what’s the most impactful thing from the 90 days in that starting foundational journey, the purpose and values exercises comes up more than any other exercise as the piece that had the deepest impact, the most lasting impact.

[00:26:41] Curtis Mitchell: I’m just curious for you. what is it about understanding your own values in a deeper way? And the way we process through that actually made the difference. And what would you offer to somebody who maybe to them core values is it’s a poster on the wall and the executive wing, it’s like, who cares about this, what do you believe about it now that you might encourage somebody who’s in that position? Yeah. One way I try to think about it is as a framework. And I think that’s something. I mean, you talk to any software engineer, you tell them that they’re working with software frameworks all day long, something that you’re trying to work on, maybe a problem that’s so complex that you want to offload some of that, cognitive heavy load to something else.

[00:27:27] And so thinking in frameworks takes care of some of that for you. And thinking in like mental models is another common phrase. just being able to define your core values Takes a lot of that mental burden off, and it’s something you wrote yourself upon deep reflection that you can then use to, when you’re facing like a difficult question or maybe like a career change or jumping off to something new, does this align with my core values and those can change over time.

[00:27:58] And I think, we’ve talked about that before too. but yeah, it just gives you like an anchor to attach. To when you’re facing some big, difficult decisions or like I do, like just a daily reminder, Hey, this is what I’m living out. This is how I’m going to tackle my day and my week. 

[00:28:18] Zach White: I really liked that.

[00:28:20] This idea that we take something that’s active inside of us anyway, everybody has a set of core values, guiding their life, their decisions, the way they show up and act every day, all day long. It’s there. We’re just not conscious of it. We’re not aware of it. And to your point, putting that out of the subconscious into a clear, simple framework and something we can consciously look at and focus on and then use it.

[00:28:45] To make those decisions. It’s a powerful way to ensure that you’re driving your life the direction you want to go. I like the cognitive burden removed. that’s a great way to talk about that. I love it. So where did this all set a course for you? Why don’t you tell us, you and I started with this deep 90 day journey.

[00:29:06] You got some things that happened, you got your best performance review ever, and you And where has it taken you since then? And where will it lead you in the future? Tell us a little bit about how that inflection point has impacted your life. 

[00:29:20] Curtis Mitchell: After that performance review, it made me face some like difficult questions.

[00:29:25] I stayed with NASA for a little over another year. 

[00:29:30] I stayed on the project I was on though, and I tried to find like some part time ways to do these other projects. wanting to do like machine learning work And then eventually I kind of realized, um, it was going to be like a harder slog than I thought it might be to try and move to that kind of work within NASA.

[00:29:50] And the other part of that is like, you’re working with a contracting company and sometimes the contract is very narrowly focused. But I joined this open source group And even while I was at NASA, I kept contributing to them, off and on but through this open source stuff I kept doing on the side Part of me just felt like that’s going to pay off in some way or lead to something else. And it did.

[00:30:13] I ended up through the open source group, working with this guy at the Census Bureau, and he was using this open source framework. I was working on and eventually after working with him for a couple of months, he said, Hey, our team is. Opening some roles. We’re using this like every day. Would you be interested in it?

[00:30:33] again like coming back to my values and going through some of the exercises helped me think about well I really love being at NASA. I really like the work I’m doing and I like my team here But is it like the the work I want to take to like the medium and long term? 

[00:30:50] Zach White: Yeah 

[00:30:51] Curtis Mitchell: and so I think it kind of gave me the courage to even consider leaving something again that like 12 year old Curtis would love doing And, yeah, I chatted with this team at the Census Bureau and then, ended up joining them a little over a year later.

[00:31:06] And now I’m doing like the, the machine learning, the AI, the privacy engineering stuff I really wanted to do, I think it would have been easier to. Play it safe and stay at NASA, like, you know, get the name recognition and interesting work and. jumping into something that’s like more of an emerging technology was a little bit of another leap of faith I had to make.

[00:31:29] Zach White: It’s aligned with your vision. And that’s what I love. 

[00:31:32] Curtis Mitchell: Exactly. 

[00:31:33] Zach White: You know, you mentioned the courage to do that. It is no small thing to step away from a sure bet. At least it feels that way. Now, many, many engineering leaders, think they’re in a sure thing, easy. and then one day you get let go.

[00:31:50] You have that situation, you realize it’s not a sure thing, but for you to be in active pursuit of your vision to do that work and create this opportunity, right? It doesn’t happen if you don’t set the goal to spend a little time each week Working on this thing and one thing leads to another and proximity is power and you meet the people and then the operative It’s just awesome how that story unfolded.

[00:32:13] So congratulations. First of all, Really I think we need to touch on this because it’s so Controversial almost it may be not controversial at least misunderstood if nothing else NASA and call it anything around government contracted defense and space, like most engineers I know would put that as second tier to SpaceX or new space organizations or any, any other engineering non government.

[00:32:41] And now with the Census Bureau, like most people I meet would probably say, wow, that sounds like the most boring place to work on the planet, like the Census Bureau. And yet you’re doing. bleeding edge, cool, fun, the work that you’ve visioned to work on in engineering in those spaces. So really quick, give us an understanding.

[00:33:05] What is it actually like on the government side and what might somebody who doesn’t see it that way want to consider for their own career path? 

[00:33:14] Curtis Mitchell: government work just has different incentives in the private sector. And consequently, you work on different problems.

[00:33:22] And if you’re interested in those types of problems, then you should consider government work. you know, you’re, you’re always going to deal with things like bureaucracy. there’s a, there’s a A common conception that the pay is much lower than the private sector, which isn’t always true, but I’d say if you’re just interested in a role that where you’re.

[00:33:43] You have access to different tools, you have access to different resources and you work on different problems. lot of people know the kind of problems NASA works on. If it’s not like aerospace or aeronautics that I was working on, it’s like sending probes to Mars or putting satellites up in the orbit.

[00:33:59] Um, with the Census Bureau, I think the things that attracted me to that as a potential career opportunity were when it, Comes to data. There’s like, no other organization like it. You’re literally collecting information on every individual and the economy of the United States. So being able to have access to.

[00:34:22] To projects that work with that data and work with those, um, types of projects, I found pretty enthralling. And like you said, like, our team’s doing really cutting edge stuff around it around privacy, cryptography, um, machine learning, artificial intelligence. It’s like, Being able to bring those types of skill sets to a data set that covers the entire country is something you won’t necessarily find in the private sector.

[00:34:49] Zach White: That is super. I like the way you framed that first statement too. It’s not that one is better or worse than the other. They have different incentives. 

[00:34:56] Curtis Mitchell: Exactly. And 

[00:34:57] Zach White: one of the coolest things, and also, you know, it could be a downside, but it’s pretty amazing about the government sector, is that there is not really the same, Profit requirement as in the private sector, right?

[00:35:11] Which means you can go work on things that on paper are inherently not going to be profitable in the short term Which for these types of bleeding edge technologies is often? Essential now, of course, you know the big tech companies etc have budgets for Research that they don’t expect to see profit from for a long, long time.

[00:35:31] So that’s how they solve that problem is something that’s profitable now. So we can invest for later, but you know, the government doesn’t have to worry about the profitable now part, which is pretty cool and opens the door to doing some other things I’d never considered though, the scale of like every single person in the country, the data set available to you, that is pretty.

[00:35:53] That’s pretty epic. I like it. 

[00:35:55] Curtis Mitchell: It comes with like interesting challenges around, especially around things like privacy, because the Census Bureau has really strong privacy protections. Like, you obviously you have all this information on the population. You want to protect that. But at the same time, they want to be good data providers.

[00:36:13] they serve. Small businesses that want to learn more about different region they might consider expanding to. they serve other governments like the state level to make sure they get, appropriate, House of Representatives allocations. So yeah, lots of interesting problems and challenges.

[00:36:29] Zach White: Uh, so Curtis, what’s next for you? the work that you’re doing, but also just yourself in terms of growth and development, where is all this going to take you? 

[00:36:39] Curtis Mitchell: I think at this point, going back to having a values framework, I think leaves me in a better position to, to kind of split the difference and be open to new opportunities, but kind of have a better idea of what I want those opportunities to look like.

[00:36:57] that could be. Staying in government, tackling different challenges, maybe in another department or another, division or going back to the private sector, going back to startups, I think I’ve got several different options available now and a better way to consider them and weigh the different trade offs that those different opportunities might provide.

[00:37:21] Zach White: We’ve mentioned this before we hit record today. Thank you. And as a part of the mastermind at the Oasis of Courage and we work together, you talk about this a lot and give this insight to others, but I wanted to land the plane here. What you just said reminds me of this statement that the courage to trust yourself, to be open to whatever the moment is offering.

[00:37:45] And aligning that to what’s your vision of the future, what success looks like to you, and just seeing how these map and the courage to decide and the courage to trust yourself now in the face of uncertainty is something that you’ve really demonstrated in these last years since we’ve met. I’m curious if you’d offer any encouragement or advice to an engineer who’s out there looking to make a change or wants to pursue growth and get their best performance review of their career.

[00:38:16] How did you develop that confidence, that faith in yourself, the courage to act? What was that like? Or what would you say to somebody who may not possess that today? 

[00:38:29] Curtis Mitchell: for me, it was trying to be better about listening to myself and trusting my own instincts. 

[00:38:36] just being open to, Hey, this doesn’t feel right. Or I feel like this could be better. And then. digging into that, question or that feeling a little bit more. Because I think a lot of times people have a tendency to, to think somebody else knows better. Oh, that person’s older.

[00:38:52] They’re more experienced or they get more recognition for this or that. Maybe I should listen to them better. Or, you know, that could even be like broader at the societal level. Like, I don’t know what I’m talking about, but really you should be more willing to trust yourself and listen to yourself more.

[00:39:12] Zach White: A lot of amazing things can come from taking that advice. Curtis, I really appreciate you sharing your journey, your wisdom, the things you’ve done, where you’re going. If somebody wants to know more maybe about government work or just connect with you and understand how to, how to accelerate growth in their engineering career to get those great reviews, how can somebody connect with you and follow up?

[00:39:36] Curtis Mitchell: I have a website that I work on here and there, uh, curtmich. com, c u r t m i t c h. com. and there I’ve got an about page. It’s got, links to my LinkedIn profile and email. I’d be happy to share that with you. Answer any questions anybody has about working in government or census bureau or NASA, 

[00:39:55] Zach White: Awesome. We’ll put a link to the website in the show notes. Happy engineer. I do encourage you. Yeah. If anything about Curtis’s story resonates with where you’re at, you want to know more, reach out, connect. I can vouch for courtesies of rockstar. You won’t, you won’t regret making that connection. So. You know where we like to end.

[00:40:15] And every time we’re together in coaching, we focus on this idea of it. Are we even asking the right question? How can we ask a better question? Because questions lead answers follow. If we want better answers, we got to ask better questions. So Curtis, what’s for you, the question that you would lead the happy engineer with today?

[00:40:36] Curtis Mitchell: I came across this quote maybe a year or so ago, and it was one of those quotes that just, like, floored me when I read it. It seemed to, like, contain so much in it. And it’s, this writer named Annie Dillard, she says, how we spend our days is how we spend our life. And when I first read that, it’s so obvious and so, monumental at the same time.

[00:41:00] And so I guess my question would be, what are you doing? In your day to day Or what do you want to be doing in your day to day to build the life that you want? 

[00:41:13] Zach White: So good How we spend our days is how we spend our life. That is solid That is solid. So what? belongs in your today To go create that life curtis.

[00:41:29] I love it. Thanks again for making time for this. I hope that every Engineer who listens will, you know, put this into practice, have the courage to trust themselves and reach out to you if they have questions about anything you shared. What an opportunity. So thanks again, man. It’s awesome. 

[00:41:46] Curtis Mitchell: Thank you for the opportunity.

[00:41:48] It’s been a pleasure, Zach. 

[00:41:49] Zach White: Until next time. Cheers.