203: Overcoming Digital Addiction in Today’s Digital Age with Jennie Ketcham Crooks

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: I’m pretty jacked myself.

You know, I, I’ll tell you that working as an anxiety specialist in Seattle, it’s usually like the tables are usually turned and I’m usually sitting talking to an engineer. And, uh, it’s interesting now to be in a position where I am being interviewed by an engineer. So yeah, I’m here for it. 

Zach White: This is, it’s kind of a kind of meta kind of a weird role reversal here.

I’m honored to be your first engineering interviewer in your, I love it. And I have to admit Jenny, there’s a certain irony to what we’re doing today in the context of your newest book and the work that you’re so passionate around. Uh, not just in anxiety and treatment as a clinician, which is a [00:01:00] whole incredible domain of your world and your business, but now your book look up.

A 30 Day Path to Digital Minimalism and Real Life Maximalism, which I love the title. And here we are recording a podcast, which is likely to be consumed on a screen or in somebody’s, you know, through a device, and so there’s like, oh, okay. But it’s still such a, such an important topic. So, tell me first, in the spirit of digital, uh, you know, overuse maybe is the nice term.

Addiction might be the more accurate term. Yeah. Like, how bad is the problem? Let’s put it out on the table. What are we really talking about here? What’s going on maybe on an individual level or also at like a cultural level? Can you frame up what you’ve seen and why you got so stirred to tackle this, this problem?

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: Yeah, I think, I think at, uh, at a macro level, what we’re looking at is full saturation in terms of exposure to smartphones and tablets and devices, right? [00:02:00] And so I, I like to step away from the idea that it’s a all screens and all use of screens that are problematic. Okay. And so narrowing more into this idea that it’s not necessarily exposure to a screen, like you and me sitting here right now.

It’s not something that is necessarily detrimental to our health. In fact, it is a bad thing. For me, a values oriented towards move, right? Like, I’m going towards something that’s important and connection is important to me. And using the screen to facilitate that is a really meaningful way to integrate this technology into our lives, right?

Zach White: Okay, okay. Great distinction. But what we’re seeing, 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: what we’re seeing is a lot of autopilot. I don’t know about you, but I don’t want to live my life on autopilot.

Zach White: Uh, you know, I, I, I will sigh and politely pause Jenny because I agree with you and yet I [00:03:00] know that I still do live on autopilot more than I want to admit, and maybe that awareness is partly by being a coach and helping others with this day in and day out that I see it so clearly, but yeah, and, and is that the, is that the dividing line between.

Screen time that can lead to all the problems that you help people with and a screen experience or screen time that actually can be life giving is this idea of consciousness or mindfulness being on autopilot versus an intentional, you know, I love how you said values toward decision. Is that how you would, if we had to put them in camps, is that the line?

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: Yeah. I love you putting your finger on that line. It is a choice. And it is a, it is a towards move, right? Like if you’re using the screen intentionally in a way that is actively moving towards something you deeply care about, there’s a good chance. It’s a towards move. It’s, it’s a meaningful use. Go [00:04:00] for it.

If, if it’s an autopilot thing, like you just end up there or you end up staying there much longer than intended, or if it’s an away move, if you’re trying to get away from some awkward feeling or some awkward encounter, then, then that’s the kind of stuff that leads to addiction or, um, like body dysmorphia or anxiety or depression.

Right. And. And so it’s not even the screen that is the problem. It’s the way in which we are using it that becomes the problem, right? It’s the function of our behavior that sets it up to be problematic. 

Zach White: So you made the comment total saturation now, which I, you know, at least anecdotally, the world that I live in, that’s what I see too.

What, what are the, Types of specific things that are happening, then if you were going to lay it out, like maybe it’s just raw screen time that’s becoming the problem. Maybe it’s how it leads to anxiety or these other things. So what are the negative effects? Jenny, if you could kind of paint the picture of what’s going on as a result of autopilot or away moving behaviors, what’s happening?

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: Yeah. I think there’s different things that are happening for people [00:05:00] who are at different ages in their lives. 

Zach White: Okay. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: For people who are older like us, I assume you’re older and I just assume everybody’s my age, but I don’t, that doesn’t actually, 

Zach White: I 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: also, I also assume that we’re the same height and I am, 

Zach White: well, yeah, we’re each like two inches away from the top of the zoom screen.

So it must be the same. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: Exactly. But then I meet people and I’m like, how tall are you? And they’re much taller. 

Zach White: So true. Happens all the time. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: All the time, right? So, for people who, um, had a period in their childhood where they weren’t exposed to screens, they have memories of what it’s like without these things, and they can envision a world where they’re able to engage with people and connect with people, not using a screen.

I’ve broken up with people in person, right? My daughter. Text is going to be the primary vehicle for breakups. 

Zach White: Wow. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: Right. And so if we really think about like, what, what are the impact of this, 

Zach White: right. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: For [00:06:00] younger generations, for younger kids, for people who’ve had access to devices, who’ve had access to social media and, um, this really sort of transactional low barrier way of connecting, it’s going to be easier to ditch people, harder to tolerate things that they don’t like.

And it’s going to make actual intimate connection that much more difficult. 

Zach White: Hmm. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: For us, as, as, as adults. 

Zach White: Generational difference for sure. I, I’m, I am old enough to be pre screen. Thank goodness. Uh, at least I say that it feels like a good thing to me because you’re right, I can imagine and reflect back to what it was like before that.

So what’s the difference in how the screens impact this generational experience? Keep going with the, I’m curious how it plays out. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: Well, our brain’s wired. without screens. We wired without the endless [00:07:00] algorithm that predicts the new thing that will keep us engaged. Our kids are getting exposed to things that actively work to keep their brains engaged in it.

We got her, for example, we got her a Tamagotchi. I don’t know if you remember Tamagotchi. I do. I do. For sure. They have not updated the software, the Tamagotchi. Oh, wow. It is. It’s magnificent, but it has a really short attention shelf life. 

Zach White: Yeah. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: She, you know, she feeds it. It’s good. She plays with it. It’s good.

She punishes it for only wanting to eat snacks, right. To prevent it from becoming an ugly alien, which it actually says in the instructions. Oh my 

Zach White: goodness. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: Put that out there. Okay. Bye. But then she’s, she’s over it, right? So it maintains her attention for, I don’t know, maybe 20 minutes, max. And then she has to find something else to do because she’s just 

Zach White: over it.

There’s nothing else. Okay. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: Nothing else. That will never happen with an endless feed. [00:08:00] And so her brain is going to develop in a way. That can go and go and go. And it never learns to attend to something else. It never learns that attentional shift. It never has the up and then the down of experience. It’s just constant barrage of content, content, content.

Zach White: And 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: there’s an impact on that. And we’re just starting to see what that is. Kids who’ve had exposure to phones through their whole lives are just coming of age now, and we’re just starting to see what the impact of that is. It’s detrimental on our mental health. 

Zach White: This is really interesting, Jenny, and it’s causing me to think there’s really two conversations we need to have around this.

If I think about myself as an engineering leader, you know, my own life, let’s say I’m old enough to have experienced pre screens and my brain developed one way, but now thinking about our kids and, and this next generation and how do we lead and, and make decisions that With what to [00:09:00] do with screens while we still have some influence over that generation.

I say we. I don’t personally have children, Jenny. But so many of my clients, of course, do. And my sister Amanda has six kids and I see how she’s handling screens. These are really tough decisions. So, which of those two do you think is better? Kind of the place to begin. Do we need to deal with our own relationship with it before we can parent it or, uh, they’re kind of separate or isolated conversations.

How, how do you approach that? 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: Yeah. What a, what a beautiful question. Do we deal with our own stuff or do we insist our kids get it together and then deal with their stuff? And, and I think, uh, for me as a parent and also as a, a clinician, Leading by example is just the fundamental for being a human for me, right?

I, in clinic, I lead people through exposure and response prevention, or just exposure therapy, right? As a primary treatment for anxiety, the treatment is to [00:10:00] do the things that scare us most. 

Zach White: Yeah. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: And so for me, that meant opening my own group practice. And I pressed up against that and was like, Oh God, I have to do it.

Like, this is, this is what it means. I have to, I have to be able to, I don’t have to, but I can choose to move in a way that is aligned with the things that I’m teaching my clients. And that’s back to values, right? I value being open. I value being courageous. I value being vulnerable and nothing says, Courageous vulnerability more than like starting your own business.

Zach White: Yeah, a hundred percent. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: Right. And so with our kids, we need to be able to model how to use technology in a way that is helpful and meaningful if we want them to be able to learn it. But if we’re using it on autopilot, if we’re using it to escape, they’re going to see that. They’re also going to learn that we’re [00:11:00] choosing our devices over them because They don’t have the sort of nuanced understanding of that behavior that we have as adults.

And so, there’s a lot of research, um, It, it, it reminds me a little bit of research on, um, still face. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the still face experiment. 

Zach White: Hmm. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: It came out of postpartum depression. 

Zach White: Maybe, but give a quick recap just to put it in context. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: I’ll give you the quick and dirty on it.

And so what the, what the research study did was it took a mom and a baby and mom would engage with baby and baby’s pointing and mom’s looking, Oh, it’s wonderful. And they’re laughing and they’re tickling and it’s, it’s this back and forth engagement, right? And then mom does something called still face where she just goes.

flat, right? Total stonewall and baby points and mom doesn’t react and baby gets a little bit louder to get mom’s attention and mom doesn’t react. Mom doesn’t engage at all, 

Zach White: right? 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: And over a period of time, what happens is baby just gives up. Baby stops trying to get mom’s attention. Baby has learned that mom is not going to attend or meet baby’s needs.

And so if we think about this from our kids perspective, [00:12:00] they come into a room. And we’re on our phones and that’s what they see. They see still face, right? They’re learning that we’re choosing this thing over them. They don’t know what is making us choose the thing over them, but they’re going to figure it out by going into there, they’re going to start to deal with that distress by using the same thing that we’re using to deal with our distress.

Zach White: I’m feeling personally convicted in my marriage and other relationships, you know, not. That it’s happening all the time, but when it does, I’m sure, you know, these are adults. It’s not the same, but it, but still I’m feeling the conviction. Okay, so, so in some ways there is the same interaction. Tell us about that.

What, what’s happening? So for the kids, you could say, all right, they’re going to give up because they’re young and they’re developed. What happens when it’s adult to adult? 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: Adult to adult, we’re going to give up too. I mean, being rejected hurts. 

Zach White: Yep. [00:13:00] 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: It hurts. And when the person that you’re sitting across from is attending to their phone instead of to you, it sends the message that they don’t want to be with you, that their device or their email or their Instagram or their feed or whatever it is, is more important than, than you, than being here and now with you, you are here right now and they’re there and then they’re in a place that is not here and now.

And so the message is the same, right? And. We have the ability to understand a more nuanced thing, but oh my God, how skillful to be able to like, step back from that pain and be like, oh, they’re on autopilot or, oh, they’ve had a really hard day at work. And they’re trying to escape some feelings. Most of us with minds that take things personally, which is all of us will look at that and be like, ouch, you don’t want me, you don’t want to be here with me.

You’d rather be on that than with me. And that kind of [00:14:00] sucks. That sucks. 

Zach White: It does suck. Jenny, here’s the other thing that’s popping in my mind. I’d love to hear your perspective from the clinical lens. You know, I’m an engineer. I work with all engineering leaders and people in technology and science. Deep, thick, analytical minds, right?

Like we, we see the world in this Y equals F of X kind of way. We love the laws of physics. We’re nerds, you know, that kind of thing. So, It’s easy for me to see you on your phone when I walk in the room and I’ll just analyze that and say, Hey, you know what? Because you’re working hard, you have a demanding job.

Um, you know, you’ve got to do that for whatever reason. And I’ll just leave the room or to your point, I just get my phone out and join right in the party of losing ourselves into our phones. And I’ll explain that to myself, you know, rationalize it in my conscious mind that that’s just because of whatever you do, it’s so important or blah, blah, blah.

And the rejection and the thing that’s happening in that emotional level and that kind of subconscious space, side I’m not really aware of. Maybe my emotional [00:15:00] intelligence just isn’t at that place. And so we end up just having this distance between us and I just sort of write it off and never, I never address it.

I don’t uncover it. I see that kind of pattern a lot with people who are really analytical, disengineering kind of lens. So what would you say to that? Like, is it possible to just totally be unaware that this is really impacting your life? Yeah. And you just don’t see it or am I misrepresenting what’s going on there?

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: Now you’re hitting the nail on the head. What, what’s happening is that response of rationalization is so fast. You don’t even realize it’s a response. It’s in response to something, right? There’s, there’s some uncertainty present. This person is rejecting me in this moment, right? Because those are the two, it’s sort of like binary thing in terms of evolution.

Like we’re either in the tribe or we’re out of the tribe. Right. And so You walk in, they don’t acknowledge you at all. I am out of the tribe. And, and for some of us, it, even that uncertain there’s, there’s the [00:16:00] rejection, which is the guaranteed thing. Like that is a, that is a bear, right? And then there’s the uncertainty.

Are they rejecting me? It’s a blackberry bush. But you can’t, you can’t look out in the distance and be like, is a blackberry bush or a bear, either way, it’s going to spark something inside of you emotionally that is like, let’s go back to the hut. Like we, this is, we have to escape this moment and, and whether we’re being actually rejected or maybe rejected doesn’t matter.

Right. And so what happens is our brain goes into problem solving mode to figure it out. Right. Like figure it out mode. Like, okay, well, there’s some uncertainty here. I’m going to figure out why there’s uncertainty or why it feels like they’re rejecting me. And once I figure that out, I can just move on.

Zach White: Right. But that 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: problem solving actually kind of quiets down the anxiety, the uncertainty in the short term. doesn’t actually allow you to move toward connection. It allows you to stay in a place where you’re just being rejected. 

Zach White: So [00:17:00] I get relief from the fear or the uncertainty, which is what I want in this moment, but there’s this long term consequence I’m not seeing.

I’m not building deeper connection, emotional intimacy and trust and all the things that the tribe part of my being craves. And so I’m fast forwarding and I’m saying, Oh, that’s how I become an isolated person who’s just constantly interacting with AI tools and my smartphone instead of living in the real world.

Uh, and we kind of joke about that. And yet that’s, that’s an actual reality for lots and lots of people. Um, And it’s easy to sit here and talk about that and say, oh, that’s really, that’s not good. You might even be that person, Jenny, and be like, okay, I don’t really like this. Um, but we haven’t had a great strategy to get out.

And that’s in many ways what we’re offering here. It’s like, so, so how do we get out of this? Let’s, let’s tackle that. What, what is the way to begin? First of all, the maybe conscious awareness that this is me. [00:18:00] I need to address it. I have a problem. How would I. Be clear about that. And then it’s like, well, if it was easy to stop, I would have already done it.

Jenny. So like, what, what, what do we do? Like walk us down that, walk us down that road. it look like? 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: Yeah. I mean, I love that that spark happened already. Right. And already it’s like, okay, well, yeah, no, this is scary. We’re going to need a solution for this, Jenny. Right. Like, let’s just jump. So I want to point that out.

It’s happening right now. Right. If inside of you, you’re like, Oh, I’m going to need to know how to solve this problem. That’s it. That’s the spark. It’s quiet. And then mind does it automatically. Right. And so, I think this, this thing that you bring up, there’s like consciousness, right? Particles and waves, the second you see it, it changes, right?

It’s such a beautiful, a beautiful thing. And so the first step to changing this autopilot behavior is to come off of autopilot, which means we need to start attending to what we’re doing in the moment. Right? Notice what’s happening inside you when you turn to your phone. Notice what it feels like to be on your phone.[00:19:00] 

Notice the things that hook you and keep you going further. Notice what happens if you leave your phone in the other room and don’t look at it for a little bit. Notice what happens if you leave it in the car or put it in the trunk when you drive somewhere. Right? Notice where it sits as you move through the world.

I mean, like my guess is that yours is within arm’s distance right now. 

Zach White: Ah, can me, you got me. It’s in my pocket. Me too. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: It’s right here. It’s right here. I, I have 

Zach White: it safely tucked away so that I am not tempted to pick it up, touch it or look at it. It’s in my pocket, but it’s still on my person. You’re right.

Yeah. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: You know right where it is all the time and it knows right where we are all the time. Right. , so, so the first step is really to come off of autopilot, the. The second step and I, and I break this down in like a 30 day challenge in my book, 

Zach White: the, 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: the, the second. So the whole first week is about coming off autopilot and there’s different mindfulness strategies.

There’s things that are sort of more fun. There’s things that are more awkward. There’s things that are just, [00:20:00] it’s all very experimental, right? And I invite you to take this scientific, I’m just watching what happens approach to to behavior change. The second week’s all about identifying, like, what are the beliefs that you have about this thing that are keeping you hooked to this thing?

Zach White: Like, 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: do you believe you need to have this on you all the time? Do you believe you can function without it if you don’t have it with you? And really starting to examine those beliefs and not necessarily getting on the tennis court and fighting back and forth. Yes, I do. No, I don’t. Yes, I do. Just noticing.

Like, wow, that’s a really powerful belief. I really believe that thing. Like, that’s so curious. 

Zach White: Can we pause on that one, one second? Please. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don’t want to mess up your flow of going through the stages, but this one strikes me with a couple of things I hear all the time from [00:21:00] engineering managers as we go through coaching and career development, and many of them.

a primary thing they want to work on is working less. They’re, you know, they’re putting in more total time and energy of their life into work than they want to. Their families are suffering or they’re burning out for other reasons. And so as they approach that challenge, it’s like, well, well, you need to create some boundaries, some separation.

You know, we’re going to end work at whatever time and go home and be with our family. And. We bump up against that belief system then, well, I need to check my email or respond to the VP’s text messages. I must be available during these hours because that’s what’s expected of me in this situation.

Company culture. You know, it’s a fast paced startup culture, or I have really high paying job at one of the big tech companies. And the irony of it, Jenny’s, it doesn’t matter if you’re in the fortune 10 [00:22:00] or the, you know, as the startup with only 10 people working there, both of those engineers think that they must be online all the time.

So, yeah. They hit that belief system. And so I think what happens is we sort of become a victim to the job, to the career. It’s like, if it was just me, Jenny, then I’d leave the phone in the truck, but it’s not just me. There’s these people in the world who need me. So what would you say to Zach? If I was that person and you’re, you know, I’m in your clinic, uh, your office for a, an appointment, you know, it’s like, 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: help me, what do I say?

Yeah. I mean, look, it’s really compelling content. Right. Fox news also has some really compelling content. It doesn’t mean you have to buy into it all. Right. Like all of, all of the news media sites have really compelling content. And there’s also a bunch of like deep fakes and disinformation and misinformation, right?

Like I think about my mind a little bit, like I think about my uncle Don. So we love uncle Don, right? 

Zach White: I can’t wait to meet uncle Don. Yeah. Tell me more about him. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: Uncle Don’s a star. So Uncle [00:23:00] Don, in his mid thirties got kicked out of Cabo for pretending to be blind and trying to rent jet skis to, you know, unsuspecting tourists.

And the cartel did not like that. And so when he was kicked out of Cabo, he left with many, many knife wounds in his body, something like 30 plus stab wounds. He was medevaced out. 

Zach White: Wow. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: We don’t know how much of Uncle Don’s story we actually believe. Uncle Don is a legend in his own mind, and he is an incredible storyteller of stories about himself.

And so of the things that Uncle Don says, I probably believe about 30%. And of that, of that 30%, maybe 20 percent is helpful, right? The rest is just. Garbage content, right? It’s just errant thoughts floating around ideas, big things. [00:24:00] You should buy this whole life term policy. Uncle Don, thank you so much.

Thank you so much. Right. And so if you’re, if you’re finding yourself struggling with the beliefs that you have about work, 

Zach White: Mm hmm. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: Right. Notice first that these are just beliefs. The, the, the strategy is to test them. Okay. Well, if I believe that I have to respond to a text message or an email, um, let, let’s get some, let’s get some data on it.

I’ve never met an engineer who doesn’t like to have good data. 

Zach White: You’re speaking my language, Jenny. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: Right. And so like, if, if you were just following the rules in your head, which anytime a must shows up, anytime I have to shows up anytime I should, those are just rules, right? Too many rules. Our life gets really narrow.

Our behavior gets really narrow. If you’re just following all these rules without experimenting with different ways, then all you have is one data point, [00:25:00] right? We need more data. So if you think that you have to respond within five minutes, why don’t we push it to six minutes and see what happens when we break the rule a little bit, can the code handle it, 

Zach White: right?

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: Like, let’s see, can we push it to 15 minutes? Can we push it to 30 minutes? Shoot. Can you respond a full business day later? Right. Um, Really identifying what is the feared consequence because rules are really designed to keep us safe, right rules. We want to know Predictably what’s going to happen if I follow this rule, right?

And so if you Break the rule. We want to know what the fear consequences if I don’t respond within five minutes. I’ll be fired 

Zach White: Yeah Of course, obviously, 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: that’s very scary. Maybe we go for five minutes and 15 seconds then, right? Like if that is, if [00:26:00] that’s it. And so you just like gently push that out, but it’s really about identifying the beliefs.

We don’t need to argue with the belief. That’s just more rules that we’re making up. Right. What we need to do is behave differently and see how that belief shakes out against our actual experience. 

Zach White: Yeah. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: We learn through experience. 

Zach White: I love this. The beautiful thing I think about our coaching program, and I use this same kind of languaging around every new behavior, it’s like, look, let’s be engineers.

Run a test. Yeah. Just run a test. That doesn’t mean you must do it this new way for the rest of your life. Let’s do it. Do it tomorrow, see what happens, maybe leave work one hour earlier tomorrow and just see if you get fired. You know, let’s test. Let’s run that test. If it doesn’t happen, then maybe you can do it two days in a row.

Let’s just try that. I think that’s a beautiful way to approach it. And I’ve also seen how collecting evidence from other people’s tests, right? Get the data from [00:27:00] a broader sample size. Most people live in this world of just their own beliefs. And as soon as you say, well, hey, I have a. Another client named Aaron, who used to check his email five times an hour.

And he constantly was on his phone, replying to emails as soon as they came in, senior manager of engineering. And we put a new practice in place where he only checks his email once a day. And guess what? He got promoted to director. Like, you know, it’s like, Oh, okay, interesting. So maybe it, maybe it can be done.

So I think sometimes widening the aperture of your data set can be really helpful on the beliefs side. So become aware, get into the moment, start examining the beliefs. What, if there’s another phase to the 30 day journey, what, let’s round that out. What else comes? 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: Yeah, we’re, we’re going to have to tolerate the distress.

of changing behavior too, right? Okay, 

Zach White: never mind. Interview’s over, Jenny. Um, hold on. You didn’t say anything about discomfort, or [00:28:00] tolerating chaos, or stress, or 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: Yes, I mean, look, that, that, you’re Aaron. That must have been really hard for him to go. From five times an hour to one time a day, right? And I think, I think we, we bake into our minds that we make a change and it’s smooth sailing.

We make the decision, we make the change, off we go. And it’s easy. Look, Aaron did it five times an hour down to one. Easy. Let’s go. Right. Let’s go. It was probably really distressing for him. 

Zach White: Yeah. Not probably, certainly was. I mean, this is a real story with a real person. It was certainly distressing. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: It was brutal.

Yeah, it was brutal, I bet. It was brutal. And he probably learned so much through doing that, right? Not just that the terrible thing didn’t happen. Or that even there was a good outcome from taking this risk, but that he was resilient enough to tolerate the discomfort, 

Zach White: right? 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: When, when we use these things to short circuit our anxiety, when we use it [00:29:00] to dis to short circuit, the discomfort, we never learn what we can handle.

We sell ourselves short, right? the whole thing is about like, well, let’s bring it on. Let’s see how much. I can handle my, my two and a half year old right now is jumping off of stuff. Great. Right. We love this. This isn’t terrifying for me at all. But she started, she started with a stare, right? Like one stare.

Well, she actually started, I have an endo board. It’s like an inch off the ground. She started with that and she just jumped off of that. Right. But then she moved up to a stair. Now she’s trying to jump off the couch. Which we’re like, okay, Sadie, stop jumping off the couch. Like, stop, please. But she, you know, like she’s bringing it on and that’s what we do as humans.

We’re like, okay, like how much can I handle? How much more can I do? Right. And they’re just these private psychological experiences happening inside of you. It’s not like any of the stuff that’s going on in there in your meat suit [00:30:00] can hurt you. It’s just stuff. Yeah. So if you’re only paying attention to that and trying to get away from that, then like you’re just going to sell yourself short.

You work perfectly. It’s, it’s not a bug that you feel uncomfortable. You don’t need to solve that. 

Zach White: Yeah. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: It’s like part of your code, right? You were made for this. This is, this is how you were designed to operate. It’s you’ve been selected for this. 

Zach White: I think of that as, you know, what’s in the hardware versus what’s in the software.

Right. And some, some of those pieces are, that’s a hardware piece. That’s a hardware. It’s not, that’s not broken. That’s just, that’s part of the hardware and learns, you know, for what I tell my clients is let’s get good at understanding what’s hardware, what’s software, and if it’s hardware, You know, let’s learn how to work with it rather than fight it, you know, and if it’s software, let’s rewrite the code.

That’s, that’s the, the mindset I think about. It helps to be a little bit nerdy sometimes when talking with an engineer. So, yeah. [00:31:00] Tolerate discomfort. Was there anything else as far as that journey? I want to make sure we, we kind of get through this because I, I think the book is tremendous and I want everybody to get a copy, but what else are we going to be doing?

Do I just face discomfort the rest of my life, Jenny? That’s all there is. And I’m screwed. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: Yeah. I love, I love that you bring up the like, well, To what end and what is the point, right? Because week four is all about what is the point of this, right? Let’s clarify our values. Let’s figure out the kind of life that we want because you’re right discomfort anxiety Sadness all of it is with us forever there’s there’s a Saying like sorrow shows up at your door and you say and I don’t want you here.

It says that’s fine. I brought a chair You Right? It’s coming in no matter what. Right? And so we need to know what’s important to us. What are the North Stars that we’re trying to follow? Right. And if you know your North star, you can go a [00:32:00] little bit South. You can go a little bit East. You can go a little bit West.

You can go a little bit North, right? Like either way, if you see it in the sky, it can be as, as circular or as, as wavy the path, it doesn’t have to be linear, right? Like your life can be really big and you can continue to move toward it as long as you have those clear values. And so that’s what the last week is all about.

And then there’s some like relapse prevention work, like. How do we know it’s time to take the challenge again? Because like every habit, it comes back. It wants to come back. We are autopilot beings. That’s also something like, this is, this is the hardware. The hardware is autopilot. 

Zach White: Yeah. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: Right. 

Zach White: And so thank goodness it is right.

We would be in a world of hurt if we didn’t have that hardware. It’s just, unfortunately, a bunch of other really smart. Engineers hacked some of those things into these tools in a way that’s hard, hard to win. It’s hard. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: Psychologists [00:33:00] helped with that as well. We’re, we’re a power couple. 

Zach White: Actually, Jenny, that’s a great point.

I bet we could do some pretty, pretty amazing things. Horrifying things as well. Would you be willing to, to share, obviously keeping confidential, specific Clients and what they’ve accomplished. But on the other end of this work, somebody goes through the 30 day. In many ways, intervention and transformation that comes from releasing an addiction to smartphones and changing your life and getting a North star.

And what, what is the prize? You know, I think it’s easy for us to talk about, well, I’m unhappy. I don’t feel good when I finish a doom scrolling session on Facebook or Instagram or whatever else, LinkedIn, you know, And so there’s a sense in the moment of just that emptiness and like you’re wasting your life.

Everybody feels that and maybe the shame and those it’s like we’re pretty familiar with what we don’t like about it. But to your point from, you know, 15 minutes ago, [00:34:00] we’re not always as familiar with what life without that is like, because especially since, uh, you know, the COVID Lockdown. I think a lot of people have not experienced that life at all.

So what’s the, the prize at the end of this journey? The thing that makes it worth it. Could you describe some specific outcomes and benefits and things people report about what changes in their life when they do this? 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: Yeah. So, so I’ve had people report greater sense of connection with The people that they have in their lives, right?

So whether it’s a manager, whether it’s a colleague, whether it’s a partner or a kid, I’ve had people share that they are now participating in meetings, which opens the door to their professional development in ways that they couldn’t access before, because they were so glued into their phone. I have people who’ve shared that they met somebody in an elevator.

Uh, That like, they didn’t realize would like [00:35:00] plug them in with the next person, or I’ve had somebody else meet somebody on the street that like, they ended up dating and they’re like, I had been on the apps and only using the apps and swiping. But then I put my phone away and just like walked through the neighborhood and I met somebody.

And that was amazing. I’ve had, I’ve had people who have stopped. It happens a lot more with women, but it might just be that men aren’t reporting it, which, because there’s just a lot of stigma around it. Yeah, we’ll open that. Um, but I’ve had a lot of women report that they have an easier time being kind to themselves about their body.

Once they stop looking at social media so much that they can just exist in their body without that comparing machine happening all the time. Um, it’s a lower, lower, lower anxiety, which is not necessarily the goal, right? The goal isn’t to lower anxiety. It’s to like be present. With whatever is happening inside of you.

And if you’re not present, you’re not actually going to notice that you don’t really feel anxious all the time. [00:36:00] 

Zach White: Yeah. Wow. Those all sound really nice. That’s a great direction. So let’s read visit quickly. What about this next generation? Um, yeah, we talked to just kind of two sides to this chat and. We all need to do the work for ourselves.

If this is resonating, it does for me, and I feel like I’ve worked harder at it than most people as a coach to master this area, and it’s still a real challenge. But. What do you do for this generation that’s never lived without the screens? Or maybe, you know, Jenny, I’m feeling some guilt right now because I’ve already modeled it the wrong way for years and years, or my kids are teenagers or whatever.

What would you say are the most important things to consider about, you know, living in a digital world and screen time and technology is a part of their lives. You don’t want to keep them from it. It would probably be a disadvantage to them in their careers and life to not do that. You know, have access to it, and [00:37:00] yet we don’t want it to be this huge barrier.

What are the most important things in your perspective? 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: Yeah, it’s really about teaching our kids how to use it in a way that’s meaningful. I think in the same way that we could do a lot better about teaching our kids how to use alcohol in a way that is meaningful. It’s unlikely that we’re going to teach them how to use cigarettes in a way that’s meaningful, but even teaching them to use marijuana in a way that is meaningful, right?

Like these are things that are here and in our world and in our lives. And so, um, Being able to pull the curtain back on our own behavior, right? So sitting down with my daughter and be like, okay, well, we’re going to look something up together. Having it be a shared experience instead of me just disappearing into this place that is mysterious to her and shiny on the outside.

Right. So being really specific about the ways in which we use it and then sharing those moments with our kids. It’s going to teach them and model for them how we want to use these devices. [00:38:00] 

Zach White: I love that. Do you have any specific belief about the value of screen time limits as a rule in a household? I know it’s a common measure or way that parents handle this.

It doesn’t feel like that’s really directly linked to what you just said, so I’m curious. Are you a pro screen time limiting person, or you say it doesn’t matter, it just depends on your, you know, if that’s meaningful in your household. Okay. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: Yeah, I think that’s a helpful distinction, right? Screen time itself is an easy rule to fall back on.

So back to that place where, like, let’s just get a rule on the books. So we know, but it totally disregards the function of screen time, right? So, like, what are we actually using screen time for? So we do have a rule in our house. No screen time during the week, right? Which largely looks like, you know, You’re not going to sit for three hours a day, watching Scooby Doo.

I’m sorry, babe. She said, she’s literally sitting right by me for those who are just listening. [00:39:00] Right. But we can’t just watch Scooby Doo for three hours a day. What we noticed when you do is that you get really distressed when you stop watching it. And so that to us says that we need to take action as parents to, to like, let you just be and let your brain just chill and be stimulated by things that aren’t.

Totally over activating, right? So, so for us, it’s less about like the specific rule than it is about like, what is the function of the behavior? She has an app called epic. I don’t care if I don’t know whatever I’m not promoting. I don’t get any kickbacks. You don’t get any kickbacks. It’s fine. She uses a reading app called epic and if she wants to play on that for a while, great.

We noticed that she starts to use it in a way that turns into this autopilot thing because it reads to her. Right. She’s not at a place where she’s reading totally solo. So there’s, it’s slippery. 

Zach White: Right. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: So we have to be mindful. So it’s one of those things where it’s like, I’m not going to drop her off in like a [00:40:00] questionable neighborhood and be like, see ya.

You know, and in the same way, I’m not going to hand her a device and be like, see ya in 30 minutes. So yeah, you got, there’s your screen time, you know, figure it out, kid. 

Zach White: And it’s 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: like, let’s, let’s use this together in a way that’s meaningful in a way that aligns with our family’s values. And then you’ll learn what we, what we want and expect from you.

And what we know is a healthy way to interact with this, with this thing. 

Zach White: Awesome. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: It takes work. It’s not easy. 

Zach White: Ah, I hate it when people say that, Jenny. Yeah, you know, but, but, uh, we enjoy the reward of that if you’re willing to put in the work. Right. And I think that’s, that’s just another life that’s hardware.

You know, that’s, that’s, that’s how it goes. Um, so good. Well, Jenny, one other quick thing I wanted to get curious about before we wrap up our time today, you are a not just genius at, but passionate in helping [00:41:00] people through anxiety. and your clinic, which kudos for your courage to model what you help others with and facing fear to open the West Coast Anxiety Clinic.

But is there a direct link in your understanding of the science and what you’ve seen as a practitioner between this, you know, digital addiction problem and the presence of social anxiety or anxiety in general that I know is really prevalent in STEM fields. Is that something that you’d say is causal in nature or are they just correlated and it’s hard to actually know what’s going on?

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: It’s, it’s hard to actually know what’s going on. There is good research that shows that those of us who overuse or are addicted to screens and use that as the primary vehicle for connection, will have [00:42:00] higher, uh, Rates of social anxiety just because we don’t have the experience of like boots on the ground Interacting in social ways in this new context.

Zach White: Yeah 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: What we do know about social anxiety and and I want to make a distinction here is that like the Social anxiety is very much about avoidance Right. Like that’s the primary thing. Like I’m going to avoid any opportunity to be judged or seen or rejected. Right. And usually, I think Right. And usually, um, I think in no cases have I ever worked with someone who was socially anxious, who does not also deeply value connection.

Right. And so, uh, Kelly Wilson, brilliant psychologist talks about how our values and our vulnerabilities are poured from the same vessel. 

Zach White: Ooh. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: And what we also know about social anxiety is that as part of avoidance, we will use things so that we don’t feel rejected or, um, judged. And, and one of the common things that [00:43:00] happens with social anxiety is alcohol use disorder, right?

So really high rates of alcohol use disorder happen with social anxiety. And that’s not to say that like. Socially anxious people are alcoholics, but it is to say that you can develop alcohol use disorder because you’re using it to quiet your social anxiety, right? So it’s this offshoot of it. It’s this.

downstream problem, right? And I think smartphone addiction is similarly flavored where if you’re using your smartphone to short circuit your social anxiety, you’re going to be more prone to developing smartphone addiction, right? Which is, so it’s all functional, right? Um, yeah. 

Zach White: Okay. Probably could do a whole another series of episodes on that piece.

I’m just curious. And Jenny, did you? Growing up or at any point in your life, struggle with this personally to become so passionate about helping others, or it’s just something you [00:44:00] fell in love with through your years in studying, uh, you know, in school, like how did you end up in this space? 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: noticed a lot of my clients using it as the short circuit, right.

As the, as the shortcut out, but then we had a super bowl party and. Elsie, my six and a half year old, she was just learning how to walk and she was shuffling across the table and everyone was just hanging out. And I have one of these errant thoughts as one does when one is at a Superbowl party and I start thinking about Snooki from the Jersey shore.

And I wonder what she’s doing and what her net worth is and whether or not like she’s going to have another baby or that, you know, and so I just get pulled into this, like I’m deeply curious. I want to know. I love learning. And what is Snooki doing? Right. And so that demanding, yeah, like it shows up and I followed it.

Like my, my behavior narrowed and I [00:45:00] went toward it. And naturally, if you give me information about Snooki, I also want to know about the situation and what he’s doing. And is Ron going to jail anytime soon? Because clearly this guy is like doing stuff that like should send him to jail. Like, is he well, right?

And so time goes by. Cause I’m just in that like deep dive autopilot place of like learning everything I can about Jersey shore. And then people start clapping. There’s this like moment where I’m like, Oh, okay. That’s right. I w I remember where my body is. Here, I, like, must, something must have happened on football, but what it was, is Elsie took her first steps, and I missed it, 

Zach White: right?

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: And so my older daughter, Sadie, she’s, like I said, she’s two and a half. I saw her first step, and that memory, I filed away, and it has yellowed, and I kind of don’t remember it, but I kind of remember it, but I don’t remember missing it. I don’t remember it. And Elsie, I [00:46:00] remember missing it and I remember the regret and then the guilt and shame that came with attending to something that just doesn’t matter really.

And so it was this moment where I was realizing that this is, this has nothing to do with psychopathology or, you know, it’s not exclusively about avoidance. 

Zach White: Yeah. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: We just go on autopilot. And so I thought, well, maybe, maybe a, a book would be helpful to change this. 

Zach White: Maybe it’s time, Jenny, thank you for sharing that.

I really, like, I feel the sting of that, of that moment. So where can we find you and the book and all the happy engineers out there who are going to want to pursue the A better life through this, where can we go? 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: Yep. You can buy the book on Amazon it’s look up a [00:47:00] 30 day path to digital minimalism and real life maximalism.

Zach White: Okay. Look up. It’s so, I mean, that’s super, I’m sure all the chiropractors out there appreciate you publishing this as well, because, or maybe they don’t, cause they’re counting on flooding, you know, lots of business in the future with people whose necks are crooked, but look up a 30 day path to digital minimization in real life.

Maximals. And we’ll put a link to the book on Amazon in the show notes, as well as if you go to the page for Jenny’s, uh, full book. full episode, all the links to her, her work and her clinic and everything about Jenny. It’s tremendous. This has been awesome. Jenny, I always finish in the same way. And I think your perspective will be super unique because of your background, both in psychology, but now this very practical work in unplugging from our smartphones and digital minimalism.

Questions lead, answers follow. You know, as engineers, we know that in the work we do, uh, in life, this is true in coaching, it’s true, and we’re all looking for better answers, happier lives and better [00:48:00] careers and all these things. So we need to ask better questions. So Jenny, what would be the question that you would lead the happy engineer with wrapping up our conversation today? 

 .  

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: Here’s my question If you got a terminal diagnosis tomorrow, found out you’ve got three weeks left to live, would you look back on your time and believe that it had been well spent?

Zach White: Full stop. Jenny, thank you so much for your generosity to be here today. I just want to commend you and acknowledge you for the work you’re doing and a much needed, you know, piercing into the veil of what’s holding a lot of people back in life right now with your book and your work. So thank you so much.

This has been tremendous. 

Jennie Ketcham Crooks: Thanks for having me. You’re a [00:49:00] star and I appreciate you so much. so