207: Navigating Neurodiversity and Adult ADHD in Engineering with Skye Waterson | ADHD Skills Lab

Zach White: Sky, I’m so excited to hear from you, because Engineering leaders who I work with as a coach and so often it comes up that as an adult, we face these challenges in focus and productivity and getting more done and a lot of times we’re curious about, I wonder if I might have.

ADD or ADHD and many of those leaders go on to be diagnosed as adults and you’ve had that experience and are now, you know, one of the leading experts in helping people with strategies and tools to deal with that change, uh, which for many of us is extremely confusing and hard to navigate in the workplace, especially in fields like engineering.

So maybe you could back up and tell us your story because you had a [00:01:00] similar experience through. Your PhD years. So what was that like, kind of, pre diagnosis and the discovery and how you found out, and what led you Yeah. 

Skye Waterson: Well, I, I thought my life path was going to be academic, you know, I’ve been a lifelong academic.

I was one of those kids who like wanted to get into law school and so I was studying really hard even in high school and then post high school I was doing, you know, doing a master’s, a post grad degree. I kept being like, you know what, you know, I might, every, every, every time it got to the bit where you had to get a job, I was like, I’ll just do another thing in university.

Um, cause I loved learning, but it also came with a lot of struggles. When I was undiagnosed, I was burning out all the time, like pretty much between every degree, um, or every, you know, certification I was taking time off, I was making art, which is my other passion. And I was like, you know, going away and then I was coming back and it got to the point where my masters, you know, I, I finished my masters.

in [00:02:00] sociology, which was a totally new area I hadn’t studied before. And I, um, worked two jobs, I taught in two different universities, and by the time I finished That Masters, I was so burned out that even though I received a scholarship to do a PhD, I don’t even really remember getting that. Um, it was only later on and I actually quit my, you know, I left university and I went and I worked in a bakery and I did some art and for a whole year because I, I just couldn’t handle it.

And so when I. When I finally, you know, I met my then boyfriend, now husband, um, and he was sort of like, Wait, you have a scholarship? What are you doing with that? Like, I was like, Oh yeah, I guess I should do something with that. Um, because I was so burned out, I hadn’t even thought about it at the time. And so when I went back to university and I did decide to do a PhD, Um, it was With the expectation that i need to figure out what was going on like i i wasn’t gonna be able to do three years of focus without understanding and so i went to my university’s [00:03:00] inclusive learning center shout out to them for being so wonderful and i basically said.

Hey, what is wrong? What’s going on? Thought it might be dyslexia because I’d heard that might be in my family. Um, and they said at the end, they’re like, well, we’re not sure about the dyslexia, but we definitely think you have ADHD. You should get tested. And that was really the first time I heard about adult ADHD, despite teaching developmental psychology, um, and learning, you know, teaching, you know, kids autism and things like that.

Um, it just wasn’t discussed at the time, like the idea that adults could have this as well. 

Zach White: Wow. When you were going through or going into burnout, 

Skye Waterson: Mm hmm. 

Zach White: You did describe a lot of things happening. It would be easy to simply say you did too much. You burned the candle on both ends. You were working all these jobs.

Do you feel like that was the case or was it this, you know, inability to focus or the challenges related to this that really led to the burnout? How would you describe that experience? 

Skye Waterson: It’s a good question. [00:04:00] I think it’s both because with ADHD, you know, we have the impulsivity piece. And so taking on too much is almost a part of ADHD, especially undiagnosed ADHD as well.

Um, but then the executive functioning is the fact that I was doing it all the hard way, I would say. So I was really strict at the time. I hadn’t really figured out organizational systems for my brain. So I just kind of taken all of the, what I’m going to call neurotypical, which means just people who aren’t neurodiverse, systems, and I had built them out to work for me.

But what that often meant was I was very, very rigid. I was creating something and being like, Right, well, I just have to stick to this and I just have to like not Do anything different and then just grind 

Zach White: it out. Grit. Yeah, grind it out. And then, you know, 

Skye Waterson: Monday would come around and things would happen and I would be like trying as hard as I can to like stop everything from moving.

Because as I can talk about [00:05:00] later, working memory struggles are difficult with A DHD. Time blindness is difficult with A DHD. So nothing had flexibility and I think that was a big part of why I burned out. 

Zach White: So you chose to get tested? Mm-hmm . And when you received the diagnosis, what was that? What was that moment like?

Was it a relief? Was it really scary? What were you going through at that point? 

Skye Waterson: I think the initial, because the way the system works was the university couldn’t verify my diagnosis. They had to go get that verified. Um, so the initial conversation when they said, we think you have it, you should get tested.

And to be fair to them, they did like eye tracking and all kinds of things. It was actually quite intense. Um, was sort of like, okay, finally I have a name for a thing. That was, that was it. There was sort of a sense of, okay, that wasn’t what I expected. But at least I know, you know, I have a name for something.

That’s, that’s something. And I was [00:06:00] literally on Google, like, what is adult ADHD? How does it work? Um, because the thing, the thing that people don’t really talk about, um, is that when you get a diagnosis like this, it doesn’t always come with solutions. It just, yeah. comes with the diagnosis. And so you can get a diagnosis of ADHD.

And they’re, they’re a little bit better about it now. And obviously if you’re going to a psychiatrist, they’ll talk medication, but it can be very much like, okay, so your brain is super different from the rest of the world. See you later. And, you know, so you’re, yeah, you’re often left kind of going cool.

Okay. Well, that helps me at least figure out what to Google. Like, but that’s about it. 

Zach White: Yeah. Wow. Diagnosed, but no solutions. I imagine that’s somewhat empowering and somewhat frustrating sounding to me. Is that what you noticed for yourself? So, what’d you do right after that? You get the diagnosis. Like, tell us about the sort of transformation that occurred for you personally.

Did you find solutions quickly? Was it really hard to transition your life around this? You’ve now gone on to immense amounts of research and discovery in that. But those first few weeks or months, what was that like? [00:07:00] 

Skye Waterson: Yeah, that’s a good question, because obviously as an academic, I couldn’t help myself. I deep dived and did, did a whole ton of research, and that’s actually how I am sitting here today and talking to you.

Um, but initially I did just go on YouTube and just Google, like, am I gonna be okay? There’s a great, um, you know, she did a lot of videos, um, how to ADHD, a lot of how to videos. And I just binge watched all of them, um, which is a very common experience when you have ADHD or new hyperfocuses, what is ADHD?

Um, and so I, I just watched all of them and I was trying to figure it out. Like, what is it? How does it work? Is it going to be okay? You know, and there was a lot of fear a little bit there as well, because when someone gives you a diagnosis. There’s a bit of a relief like, okay, I know what this is, but there’s also fear because, you know, you can hear, you’ve heard all kinds of things.

And so, you know, sometimes I think now a little bit more, there’s a feeling of, okay, this is God’s strengths and weaknesses. But when I was, Doing it, which is a bit earlier than that, there was a lot of [00:08:00] anxiety about, like, am I even going to be able to do what I want to do? Like, at the time, I was, I was still trying to be an academic.

So that was, you know, a bit of a, a bit of an anxiety around, okay, what does it look like? And then you have to go back through everything you’ve ever done in your life and put it through that lens as well. 

Zach White: Yeah. Would you be willing to Maybe lay out the terms and the, you know, nerdy way to say it, the inference space of this.

When you think about ADD, ADHD, what’s under the umbrella of neurodivergence in general? Yeah. You hear about the spectrums of these versus autism, like what, what all are we talking about? Just the engineer in me. I’d love to get some definitions. Yeah. For sure. For sure. Because I’m certainly not an expert.

So what have you, it’s the simplest way to define some of these. 

Skye Waterson: Yeah. 

Zach White: Different diagnosis. So 

Skye Waterson: I’ll give you the diagnostic process. I think that’s a helpful way to consider it. So most of these things are, you know, you know, neurodiversity is quite a broad term and [00:09:00] I think a lot of people just sort of adopt it in various ways, but essentially the way that this is currently being diagnosed is using a book called the DSM and the DSM is a diagnostic and statistical manual.

I think they’ve got like five pluses kind of where we’re at right now and it’s something that is sometimes updated. Um, but it’s used by psychiatrists and, you know, other professionals as well to understand what people have. And so you’ll have your autism spectrum in there. Um, you’ll have, um, different kinds of learning difficulties in there, and you’ll also have ADHD in there.

And so for ADHD specifically, um, you’ve got this. Section where they’ll ask you some questions. Um, they make a few adjustments if you’re an adult versus a child. Um, sometimes they’ll want additional things. I did like eye tracking tests as part of my initial understanding of what I had sometimes. They’re gonna want to know from like childhood information, things like that.

Yeah. But essentially what they’re looking for is, is this [00:10:00] problem of, I feel restless. I interrupt a lot. I’m driven by motor. I feel easily distracted. They’ll go through and they’ll ask you those questions. And then they want to know, are these systems pervasive and persistent over time? So is this just that you’re currently going through a really stressful moment, or is this a pervasive part of your life?

So me, it would be like, is this something that I did during my burnout period? Or is this something I’ve done my whole. career to this point. 

Zach White: Would you walk through some of those indicators? If someone’s wondering, am I potentially, like, would it be wise for me to go and be tested and see if I have this?

What are the main things that somebody would be thinking or experiencing day to day? An engineer? on the job. You mentioned a few, but what are the big ones? 

Skye Waterson: Yeah, so I can’t give you the exact, um, although there’s one that’s like, do you feel like you’re driven by a motor, which has just been burned into my brain, because it’s the first time I’ve ever heard anyone describe it as that, but generally speaking, if you are somebody who finds yourself Persistently across different areas, work and home, you know, you are impulsive, so you do things sort of [00:11:00] reactively, um, even though you don’t mean to, if you find yourself really forgetting Forgetting things.

So, you know, if somebody says, Hey, can you get this to me tomorrow? And you say, Yeah, no worries. I’ll definitely remember that. And you don’t write it down. It’s just gone. If you’re one of those people. Um, if you struggle with time blindness, um, and I speak on the executive functioning stuff. Because I particularly support that.

But if you struggle with time blindness, so you struggle to, someone says, Hey, when does that report you? And you kind of pick a number out of the air because you’re not really sure, even though you’ve been doing this job for a while, um, those could all be really good indicators that you might have something with.

Getting tricked full 

Zach White: time blindness. I’ve not really heard that term before. So it’s guessing in a sense versus knowing something that you were told in the past. Is that what that is? Or is it just a lack of awareness of time passing? Like, wow, it’s been four hours. I can’t believe I’ve been sitting here for four hours.

Or is it both? What, what all is time blindness? 

Skye Waterson: [00:12:00] Yeah, that’s what the researchers are trying to figure out. And it really blew my mind when I learned about this, because I had not, uh, that was a piece that I did not understand was part of ADHD at all. But essentially what it is, is it is a lack of awareness of time passing.

So you are correct in that, uh, there are some researchers that can think that maybe it’s got to do with the fact that if you’re ADHD. Your internal clock is a little bit faster. So maybe that’s what’s going on. Um, but essentially it’s a combination of, you’re gonna probably likely overestimate how long something underestimate, how long something’s going to take.

So you could say, I’ll get that to you by Friday. And everyone else is like, it should take a month, like that kind of thing. Um, and this is particularly interesting if you’re an engineer, because you’re doing a lot of things that involve time and figuring out time. Um, and so, you know, you get, if you’re the kind of person where they say, Oh, so and so’s, you know, I’ll get it to you by the end of the day is the end of the week and the end of the week is the end of the month, then you’re probably in this category.

Um, and then on the other side, it’s also just how long do you think, you know, time is so kind of going in, you’re the person who. Sort of goes right. I need [00:13:00] to be there in an hour and then starts working and then it’s the hour I often say people with ADHD. We love to think we can teleport, you know, we’re like, oh, I’ll just I’ll just be there You know right after I have this other meeting.

Zach White: Okay, what is The biggest challenge for you in interacting with, I’ll call it, you know, the people who are quote normal in their minds and they see the world a certain way and then someone comes in who’s ADHD and it has a completely different experience. What creates the challenge in those interactions with other people?

You know, like where, where does the conflict occur? Like, you know, Sky, why can’t you just Do this or why, you know, somebody doesn’t understand how to interact or how to relate to this, where are those points of challenge? 

Skye Waterson: Can you give me an example? 

Zach White: Yeah. Like engineers, we spend a lot of time. In deep focused work and, and then we need to switch tasks from one to another.

We’ve got three projects going on. And so lots of engineers spend your time building systems of getting good at say, I’m going to spend this next 90 minutes, deep work, focused work on this project, but then I need to come out of that and go to the meeting and drive a totally different thing. And that should be easy and normal and anybody should be able to do that.

And, you know, maybe someone with ADHD is like, what are you talking about? Like, once I’m in that groove, if I even can get there, then I’m in it for six hours or I never even can get to the deep focused work. I really struggle with multitasking, lots of things on my mind. These are just examples I hear.

Obviously, I’m coming from the, you 

Skye Waterson: know. 

Zach White: Well, maybe I’m using bad terms here, too, with the normal side of this, and that you can help me with the right or a better way to describe that, but that’s 

Skye Waterson: an example. I would, I would, I would generally use the term neurotypical, um, if you want to be specific, but it’s all good.

Um, but you know, if, um, if we’re talking about the transition, so what we’re talking about is struggles with transition, or sometimes it’s called set shifting. And there is a lot of research on this. It’s this idea is a bleed effect, which basically means that if you are. ADHD and you get pulled out of a meeting into another meeting, you have this, a bleed effect between the two meetings where you’re, someone will ask you a question in the thing you’re talking about, and you’ll still kind of be [00:14:00] half in the other thing.

So the transition can be a struggle. And I will say ADHD has strengths and weaknesses. So one of the strengths is that hyper focus and people think of it as not a strength, but often it’s, um, it’s to do with the fact that they struggle to get out of it. Or sometimes get into it. So if you have the strategies, which I actually do, you can DM me focus on Instagram at unconventional organization, and I’ll just give you the document that shows you how to do that.

But if you are in a position where you’re kind of stepping into focus, once you’re in focus, you can really go for it. Like that maker time is awesome. Right? But if you’re in that meeting time and that make a time, and it’s all in the same week, and I’m saying this cause I’m sure you guys have heard about meeting make a time.

And I think that might be a neurodiverse thing somewhere. Um, is it’s really, really hard to get anything done. And what people tend to do is they tend to move into a reactive mode and they’re not actually able to get deep and get any traction.

Zach White: Just [00:15:00] the other day, I got a message from one of my past clients and a listener of the podcast, shout out Alexa. She was listening to one of my previous episodes on productivity. And we went through and talked about different strategies and pillars, the mindsets and the tool sets of being productive at work.

And I’m actually going to read a question she sent me after the fact, because I think this is right in the heart of what you’re describing. She said, Really appreciate the episode of productivity, incredible content. But my question, have you thought about doing an episode on some of these pillars specifically for folks with ADHD?

Maybe you have, and I’ve missed it. Well, Alexa, you didn’t miss it. We’re doing it right now. Uh, my husband was recently diagnosed with ADHD and his old tools that made him successful as a software developer aren’t working anymore, the tools and approaches that work for me are just not for him and in many ways feel ableist.

I know there must be successful leaders. In technology that have solved this, I’d love to hear you explore it. [00:16:00] Keep up the great work. And so, I think the heart of this is what lots of people face. It’s like, okay, when I want to be productive and organize my calendar and switch tasks or switch focus, here’s what I do and it works and I’m effective.

And when I offer that to someone else who has ADHD, diagnosed or not, and especially when they’re not diagnosed, it just gets frustrating for them because they don’t understand why. They can’t do it the way I can do it. So, Skye, what are the two or three most important Ways of working or tools that people need to focus on to lean into the strength side of ADHD and to manage where it can be a weakness.

Skye Waterson: Yeah, so I, um, I teach a program called Focus Balanced Days. Um, because we want to focus on days because, you know, who remembers every other day or a couple of times a week, um, when you have ADHD and so what that really focused, it’s really a culmination of the research and work that I’ve done, um, with [00:17:00] my own clients.

And so what we talk about is we talk about going from overwhelmed to focus, stuck to proactive and then inconsistent to consistent. Um, and so. I would say there’s six things that I really would have really want to teach you. But the main two that I think people often use the most is how to prioritize.

So we talk about a prioritization filter because you’re sort of in that overwhelmed space at the beginning of the day. You’ve got a million things coming at you and then something more drops on your desk or in your inbox. Um, and then the step into focus routine. How do we actually. Step into that focus when we have that make a time, how do we use it?

How do we make sure we’re not procrastinating, you know, everywhere we’re cleaning our office, we’re organizing our papers. We’re just checking that one more email and we’re not actually doing the thing. 

Zach White: So, prioritization, what would be different that someone with ADHD needs to consider in how to prioritize versus how everybody else does?

Skye Waterson: Yeah, so, one of the big things [00:18:00] about it is working memory struggles. So, working memory struggles means that it can be really, really hard when you have ADHD to, like, do the Eisenhower Matrix in a traditional way. Because you have to think about what’s important and what’s urgent and you’re kind of keeping it all in your head and writing it down.

The way I teach it is we do a prioritization filter. And what that does is the first thing we do is we brain dump everything. So if you’re, if you want to do this at home, you can imagine your brain is like, uh, full of boxes and those boxes are tasks. And you take all of those boxes out. You write them all down, family, home.

I want to speak another language one day. Like you get everything down. This is probably the most anxiety inducing thing you’ll ever do working with me. Um, because you have all these things, but then we organize them. So we say. Is there anything we can discard off the bat? You’d be surprised how many I need to send Christmas card tasks are still stuck there.

And you haven’t, Christmas is over, you know? Um, and you know, the other ones are like, could we catch and release something [00:19:00] back? You know, so it’s like a soft version of delegate for people who struggle with delegation and say, I was really excited about this project. Um, but can you give me some more details, maybe organize a meeting with me and then we’ll discuss it really helpful if you’re in a kind of engineering.

And then from there, what you have left, you go through and you say, okay, with everything that’s on my list, what needs to be done today? Or there will be a significant negative external consequence. That doesn’t include I’ll feel bad. That doesn’t include I said I would get it done by Friday, but no one really cares.

That doesn’t even include it’s overdue, but really there’s no deadline. What has a significant external negative consequence? Go ahead and write a T next to that. Then what needs to be done in the next seven days? Or there’ll be a significant negative external consequence. Write a seven next to that. Then everything that’s left, everything that’s left, have a look at those things.

And go, okay, what are the one to three things that are very RR? R O I positive that are going [00:20:00] to move my project forward, move my life forward. Now you have more space in your week because most of the time people only have up to five T tasks and up to 10, seven tasks. And with the rest of the time in your week, block time for those important things.

Like you would a doctor’s appointment, like however you block a doctor’s appointment, block those times. And, you know, focus on that time and get those things done. That’s the process that we tend to go to. I just basically gave it to you, so you’re welcome. 

Zach White: How often do you do that? I think about the today tasks.

One of the things engineering leaders face is the constant evolution of priorities. You know, it’s a today. This is clearly priority one, and you would think that it would be priority one tomorrow. But because the VP walked in my office and said, I need this report by the end of the day, suddenly it’s, it’s not anymore.

So how do you, how often do you do a process like this? And how do you handle those unexpected [00:21:00] changes in priority? 

Skye Waterson: Well, what I do is I go ahead and, um, do it every morning. So that’s what I recommend. Do it every morning. You can actually do this whenever you are, um, whenever you feel slightly overwhelmed.

Um, the great thing about the system is it’s very flexible. So if you take a few days off, you come back, it’s not really gonna. You know what I mean? It doesn’t really affect you too much in a way that a, that a really static, um, system would. Um, you can go ahead and do it in the morning is usually what I recommend.

When you work with my program, you do that as a daily standard. And. Just whenever you feel overwhelmed, but the key is you don’t make an entirely new prioritization filter every day. You add to, I have a whole, I go really deep on this, but you add to it. You think of it like a tree, you add to it, you build on it, the roots grow, that kind of thing.

So everything is kind of connected. Um, and so what a lot of people will do is they’ll make a list, they’ll organize it, they’ll feel better, and then the next day they’ll make an entirely new list. That’s so much additional work. 

Zach White: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Really good distinction. So I’m just daily asking, is there anything new that’s come to mind that I’m [00:22:00] holding that I need to dump?

Throw that down. And then a quick assessment. Did any of those sevens changed? What’s the tease for today? Exactly. 

Skye Waterson: Exactly. 

Zach White: Yeah. I love that. Okay. So what about this stepping into focus piece? And I think one of the most common challenges or complaints that I hear with the things that I coach folks in is, okay, we’re going to block the time.

You’ve got two hours set aside for focused, deep work. Great job. We’re going to protect that boundary. Great job. And some people sit down and have no problem going from zero to a hundred miles an hour on that priority. And other times we sit down and it’s like. The whole two hours is gone and I did nothing.

So yeah, what what’s the key to? Getting, you know, just being able to direct our focus to the highest priority on command, rather than when I’m lucky enough that it happens to, to go my way. 

Skye Waterson: And the on command bit is really important because often a lot of people’s struggles are actually [00:23:00] Around this, people will say, well, I feel like I can never control my time.

I feel like once I’m doing something, I find myself doing it for five hours. Like a lot of this comes from the fact that you feel like you’re being sort of, you know, dragged around by the nose. You’re not actually able to control your time. So this is often a huge unlock for people. But essentially what I do, and this is based on, like, I can go so nerdy on the research, I’m not gonna, I’ll spare you guys, but just know that this is based on a lot of research, um, but the idea is that you’re up here, you’re in a high dopamine state, you’re, you know, on your phone, on the couch, you’re talking to people, you’re checking that email, that counts as a high dopamine state, um, and you’re, Wanting to go into a lower dopamine state where you’re focused, you’re writing a report, you’re deep thinking, all of those kinds of things, you know, you’re drawing things out, and there is a gap there between those.

This is for everyone. There’s a gap between the high dopamine and the low dopamine state. When you have ADHD, that gap feels One of the [00:24:00] things I like to do when I’m talking to new people who are joining me is ask them how that feels. Um, and people have told me all kinds of things. Somebody said it feels like someone’s eating your soul.

Uh, some people have said it feels like there’s a wall coming down or there’s an internal itchy, horrible feeling. So people really experienced this super viscerally. Um, and when you understand that, it becomes very obvious why you might put it off and do something else. You know, our brains are really good at protecting us from things that feel bad.

So what I help people do is, if you think about it as like steps, you’ve got, you know, you’re up here and you need to get to a lower step, but there’s no steps in between. I help you add steps in between to help you step down into focus. And so those steps involve things like supporting your. Your dopamine giving you a little boost because we don’t seem to get one when we start a task like neurotypicals, helping you with the working memory support, helping you go through that, helping you with [00:25:00] transitioning, helping you with bit of the fear of the blank page.

Bit of tinkering so that by the time you get to the bottom, it’s almost harder to not start because you’re already opened the application. You’ve already started. You’ve already, you know, reduced distractions, all of these things. Does that make sense? 

Zach White: Oh, that’s really insightful, actually. And to your point that everyone goes through this, I, I relate to this feeling.

You know, coming off of a podcast interview like this, for example, this is a really exciting conversation. I’m very energized, lots of preparation. You know, there’s a certain level of adrenaline involved is just sort of being here and enjoying this to go straight from this into some deep planning or prep work for.

An event we’re having in March. Very difficult shift. You know, I’ll find myself leaving the office, walking around a bit, saying hi to some people in the other room, you know, stalling and I get into it. You’ll 15 minutes later, time just kind of vanishes 

Skye Waterson: to 

Zach White: think about being more intentional [00:26:00] through those steps makes.

A ton of sense. Um, where else do you see the biggest need in terms of adapting a normal work environment that we might face if we’re at Google or we work at Apple and we’re in the office and the kinds of challenges where with just a few strategies? We can become more effective. What are the others that you see come up with?

Yeah, 

Skye Waterson: it’s a good question. I mean, it’s a good question. I mean, I was lucky enough a little while back to work with the New Zealand intelligence because they had so many people with ADHD. They reached out to me to figure out how to manage their managers. And so one of the things we saw in that environment was it sometimes very simple things that people don’t think about.

So an example of that is having hard deadlines. So giving people hard deadlines rather than short deadline, rather than sort of flexible. Sometimes when we find out people have ADHD, they say, Oh, don’t worry. Like you don’t have to do it. And you’re actually removing a lot of like dopamine and struggles with time blindness.

Like the more things we can’t put on the [00:27:00] calendar, the harder it is. to do anything. Um, and then it’s also the environment, creating a flexible environment, giving people options for working. Do people want to work in like a coffee shop or at home or at work and just adjusting it based on the stimulation needs, different tasks require different.

Um, and then the fun one I like to say, because people don’t, don’t do it, and surprisingly often, is just being in a position where if someone’s having a meeting, if there’s a meeting room, putting a clock on the wall, in this place where the speaker is, so that if they are asked to give a five minute presentation, they can actually see how long five minutes is, rather than having to guess.

Zach White: Oh, that’s super interesting. Put a clock on the wall. Yeah. Actually, as you mentioned that, I don’t remember when I was at Whirlpool Corporation, how many conference rooms had clocks on walls, but I don’t think it was very many. Surprisingly, often 

Skye Waterson: they don’t. Yeah, that’s why I love to do it. Because, you know, sometimes, especially when I have, I don’t do it as much anymore, but I used to work with um, With, you know, I worked for the district [00:28:00] health board.

I worked for the intelligence service. And so, you know, there’s always this fear of like, this person’s coming in and we want them to be here, but they’re going to make us change everything. And so I always started to put the clock on the wall because everyone’s like, Oh, I can do that one. 

Zach White: I know I’m going to get emails from my former colleagues with pictures of clocks all over conference room walls, because I’m probably wrong, but that’s super insightful.

So make it easy and visual. To see the passing of time. Exactly. That’s brilliant. Okay. Well Skye, I, I know you’re deep in this research and it’s become not just a personal passion for your own journey through life, but helping others. What are you really excited about in terms of the future? Is it just driving awareness?

Is there, you know, new things coming that are helping people to navigate this in different ways? Like what’s on the horizon when it comes to ADHD and neurodivergent? Yeah, 

Skye Waterson: I love this question. I’ve never been asked this question, but I’m such a research nerd that I have like a person on my [00:29:00] team who gives me new research to read.

so one of the things I’m really excited about is actually AI. And I know a lot of people are excited about AI. It’s a big topic right now, but I’m particularly excited about it for two reasons. One is a lot of the struggle. A lot of the supports, um, seem to be really helping executive functioning. So working memory, time blindness.

Like there’s an app now called Goblin Tools that if you go and you write a task that you have to do into the app, it will break down that task for you and give you time estimates. Things like that are game changers for ADHD. But also on a, on a more, on another level, there’s some research now into, um, machine learning and.

Diagnosis. So they are considering that they might be able to, based on speech, you know, how people talk to each other, understand who might be ready, like, like a pre diagnostic, basically. So listening to people talk and then being able to say, okay, this person might need [00:30:00] to be get tested because as the piece of research we read, so well put it, uh, you know, rambling, going off on tangents, things like that.

So yes, that’s amazing. Amazing game changer if that’s the case that they could do that. 

Zach White: Wow. That’s, I would imagine there’s more than just diagnosing ADHD possible if you could actually analyze my speech patterns all the time. So many little things that are made manifest through speaking as a coach. You know, we both pay really close attention to what people say because it’s the clue to what’s really going on.

Oh, I love that. So AI and it’s. Potential to solve these problems. Is there any specific AI tool you personally are using that helps you navigate life and research? Yeah, 

Skye Waterson: um, I am actually, I’m actually thinking about, so I particularly work with business owners these days, but I’m actually thinking about writing, um, doing a workshop on like AI for ADHD because I think it is such a common struggle.

Um, but, um, I think the biggest ones for me that I’m using right now, I use Notion AI. I’ve recently [00:31:00] started that just because they obviously have their, it’s like a wiki for your brain, which if you have a working memory struggle with your brain is really helpful. Um, I use Goblin tools to an extent. I will teach Goblin tools these days.

Um, and I, um. Use. I’m sort of working on starting to use notebook LM because having something that can read or make a podcast of, of information that I need to learn in the morning, um, can be really helpful. Cause I can do something, I can work out. I can do something active while I’m learning. 

Zach White: Awesome. One other thing I’d really love to hear your heart around before we wrap sky.

You mentioned the. sense of almost relief with knowing, okay, ADHD, I have a label now for this experience that I’ve been having. And now I know what to go Google and it kicked you off on a path that was ultimately positive for you. But I know from clients I’ve worked with that. Many of them, even if they are diagnosed as an adult, are [00:32:00] hesitant to share that with others because it feels like an excuse for why they cannot perform on the job.

And they don’t want to be You know, struck down and even, you know, me using the word normal earlier as an example. It’s like you create this unintentional or maybe sometimes intentional bias against people like, oh, you know, so and so has ADHD. Maybe we shouldn’t give them this task or shouldn’t put them in charge of this team.

And so they’re 10, you know, maybe afraid to put that out there or. first of all, what would you maybe speak to that or help people understand how to navigate society, but also personally in your own mindset and kind of how to deal with this in a positive way? 

Skye Waterson: Yeah, it’s a good question. You know, I am. I will say, first of all, I have a lot of empathy for that.

I didn’t, um, tell people that I was diagnosed immediately. Um, I actually waited quite a long time to tell my professors. Um, even, you know, while I was learning about this stuff, I wasn’t necessarily sharing it with everybody. So I get it, you know, it takes a while, especially some people, you know, some people are friendly, some people are less friendly, you know, you know.

You don’t [00:33:00] necessarily want to tell everyone. Um, and so, you know, but One of the things that I often recommend to my clients, um, is that this is information about how you work. It doesn’t have to be an information about your ADHD diagnosis. Cause if I say to you, I have ADHD and you only know.

About a nine year old boy in your class that one time it was super distracting and you hear the word ADHD But you don’t know what it means. So you’re not even understanding it. So you’re not even Communicating what you’re trying to communicate by saying I have ADHD so sometimes It, you know, particularly for people you might be concerned about, or if you’re in a position where you want to get a promotion, it can be helpful to say, I work best in this environment.

This is your goal. So understanding the goal of the business is to, you know, make X thing, launch this thing, whatever it is. And I work best in an environment where I have meeting time and make a time super separated so I can deep focus. Um, that’s how I work the best. I would like to do that. So you [00:34:00] don’t necessarily have to.

Disclose in order to get all of your supports, but at the same time, just know that ADHD comes with struggles, but also a lot of strengths, creative thinking, creative problem solving, out of the box thinking, you know, there’s a lot of research behind that. Um, so, you know, this is very, very helpful as well in many ways.

Zach White: I love that. Bring it to specifically how you can best succeed in the workplace and talk about that. And to your point, The label is not helpful to someone who doesn’t understand. And I was that for a long time and still in many ways feel like I’ve only scratched the tip of the iceberg today has been super informative for me to understand in a deeper way, what’s really going on.

And for someone to tell their manager and that manager actually see the strengths in it, that’s very rare. So you need to be proactive yourself to share what you need to be effective, but also how you can be the best [00:35:00] in these different environments and leverage the strengths. That’s awesome. 

Skye Waterson: Exactly, because you know, sometimes people will come to me and they’ll say, Well, I told my boss I had ADHD, and then they were very supportive.

And they said, What do I need to help you? And I said, I have no idea. And they said, They have no idea. And now we’re here. So like, sometimes that happens too. 

Zach White: Yeah, yeah, it’s like a new name badge, but nothing happened. Amazing. Well, Skye, this has been Really, really useful for me. I’m sure engineers who are listening will want to know more and may definitely want to plug into your resources around this.

So where can someone find you connect with you? What’s the best place to start in discovering these tools and strategies? 

Skye Waterson: So you can find me at unconventional organization. com. You can find me on LinkedIn, sorry, on Instagram at unconventional organization with an S. Um, I also have a podcast, the ADHD skills lab, um, where you can find us.

We interview a lot of very interesting people. Um, and we also have research recaps at the [00:36:00] moment. I’m only working with. Business owners and some, um, individuals, professional individuals who asked me really nicely, but definitely reach out and I will give you all of the resources. 

Zach White: Okay. Amazing. I’ve seen some of the free stuff that you provide.

It’s tremendous. I definitely encourage you. Happy engineer listening. Go click the link in the show notes. If you are going to type in that URL that you heard, it’s spelled the New Zealand way. So within us, I can assure you. You get that in and Sky, I really appreciate your generosity today. You know, this from being a researcher, engineers experienced this as a coach.

It’s true that questions lead, the answers follow, and we’re all looking for better answers and specifically today, better answers for how to live with and thrive with adult ADHD. So if we want better answers, we need to ask better questions. Sky, what’s the question you would lead the happy engineer with today?

Skye Waterson: Yeah. The question I would leave you with is a, is [00:37:00] a version of a question I ask or a version of something I often say at the end of a podcast, which is how much harder do you think you can work? Because often people will come to me and they’ll say, I just need to white knuckle it. I just need to push through.

And as somebody who’s done that and burned out and come back, my question to you would be, are you working as hard as you can right now? Because you might actually just need different ways of working, not harder ways of working. 

Zach White: That strikes a very good chord of resonance. I relate to that myself as well.

How much harder could you even work? 

Skye Waterson: Are you working 

Zach White: as hard as you can? Wow, Skye, thank you again for this. So amazing to chat with you and have a wonderful and happy New Year 2025. For those listening in the future, you missed out on the Christmas tree in the background there. This has been awesome and we’ll have to do it again sometime, follow up and see.

I’m sure the listeners will have more questions for you. We will have to reconnect. 

Skye Waterson: Definitely. It’d be fun. 

Zach White: [00:38:00] Awesome.