199: Here’s Why Nobody Cares and Some People Win with Robert J. Hunt | The Accountability Guy

[00:00:42] And we were reflecting that at the turning point of accountability is where you say to yourself, wait. Nobody cares unless I care enough to do something about it, which is the turning point in everyone’s story where they go, I can blame. I can make excuses. I can say I can’t. I can wait and hope or I can own it and I can do something about it.

[00:01:02] And that’s that magical phrase that we had to apply to ourselves in our own journey. It’s what I taught my young 15 year old son. To do and to practice when he was a young man in helping him to start to learn about accountability. And it’s what I want people to say to their own life. Nobody cares. Until you do and when you care enough to do something about it You gain the power to change anything in your life.

[00:01:26] So it’s really just to get people’s attention and start the conversation 

[00:01:29] Zach White: well, first of all funny the truth behind what you said that the title of a book is so so important We all say don’t judge a book by its cover. But wow, do we really judge books by their covers? so the turning point in our journey in relationship to accountability, but really then in our lives is when we go You Past that point of realizing nobody’s going to care until I do.

[00:01:52] So Robert, when did that moment happen in your life? Is there a place that you remember where this really clicked for you? 

[00:02:00] Robert Hunt: Yeah, it did. 2019, my beautiful wife, Kathy and I had, come together for our annual planning day. we used to go away for a few days, somewhere cool and plan, uh, but money was tight.

[00:02:10] So we were doing our living room and we were saying, look, we don’t like our life. We looked at all the things that we were dealing with and we weren’t happy with it And it was this harsh reality of look We’re not happy with our marriage. You’re not happy with our health and we’re our finances We had ninety thousand dollars in debt that did not include the house or the cars we were dying Wow And so I said, look, if we’re not going to fix this somehow, if God’s not going to bless us, which is a phrase we’d use, meaning God would fix all of our bad decisions.

[00:02:39] If God’s not going to bless us, then let’s sell the house and let’s just start over because I’m tired of living like this. And all year long, we kept thinking, okay, God, you know, don’t let us down. Come on, drop a big bag of money in the backyard. Let’s get going. And surprise, he did not. And so what he did give me was vertigo.

[00:02:56] In September, I got that for 16 days and towards the end of that, I started telling Kathy, look, what if I have vertigo the rest of my life? This is debilitating. I can’t work. we’re screwed. Well, God took it away. And I said, okay, that was a sign from God that you need to get your act together and own this thing.

[00:03:12] And so we decided end of September, okay, that’s it. We’re putting a house on the market. we went through this whole journey of selling our house, moving into this house where we live now. And then we And starting over and the freedom that we found in owning that journey was amazing.

[00:03:28] It fired us up to look at everything else in our life, our marriage, our health, our relationships, everything that we were doing going, well, am I not happy with that too? Well, what am I going to do about that? the power that we felt like, look, if we change that, we could do anything. And it was so encouraging to do that.

[00:03:46] Zach White: So, this planning meeting, I know you said you usually go away, but you were in your living room. Was this just A choice for you and your spouse together, just a relationship thing. Was it a business thing? Like what, what was that? Well, she’s my business partner. 

[00:03:59] Robert Hunt: She’s my business partner, but we did this as like a boondoggle for us to go away and travel somewhere and have a few days to look back at last year and look at this year and say, what with intentionality, what do you want your life to look like?

[00:04:12] And every year we’d have something else. Uh, we’re going through different journeys in our walk with the Lord and our relationship with each other and how we raised our kids. And I’d say, you know, if we’re looking at something and we’re, we’re not happy with it, let’s work on it this whole year. We had an annual planning session and it always inspired us to have a focus for the year.

[00:04:30] Zach White: That’s really cool that you had that rhythm. So my kind of engineer brain crank in here. Robert, what was different about 2019 than 2018 and 2017? Like, if you’ve been doing this every year with your spouse, what changed? How did you miss it all those other years and suddenly become aware that it’s different?

[00:04:52] And make this turning point decision. What was the difference in 2019? 

[00:04:57] Robert Hunt: I’d say 2019’s review was still, the same way. let’s look at everything we have and let’s figure out what we’re going to focus on. But we still felt self limited by all the excuses and blames and saying I can’t and waiting hoping.

[00:05:10] So all year long we kept waiting. Okay, maybe God’s going to do some amazing miracle and we’re going to get all this new business. We’re going to have all these things because you know, we had ups and downs in the business over the, that was seven years. in business at that point. And there were some great years and some bad years, but we, we couldn’t get ourselves out of this hole.

[00:05:27] And we were just kind of going along that same pattern. But when vertigo hit, I realized, look, nobody cares 

[00:05:34] Zach White: and 

[00:05:34] Robert Hunt: nobody’s going to fix your problems. And it was at that one moment that I realized I have to do something drastic to own this. And it was the first time we actually stopped making excuses, blaming or waiting and hoping it was going to get better.

[00:05:46] And we did something about it. I mean, something really hard instead of just waiting for it to get better. I was just hoping we owned it. 

[00:05:54] Zach White: So the vertigo and the loss of control in your life, like this just, Oh my goodness. If this stays, what are we going to do? That was a key. Catalyst to your awareness.

[00:06:05] Oh, wow. Okay. So what I’m intrigued by, and I want to relate this now to what you’ve discovered since then, but engineers are really systematic, really driven by process and habits and systems. And even in my coaching with engineering leaders, we focus on this mindset of upgrading your operating system, the way that you live and how you work.

[00:06:25] And we use some of that language because it resonates for engineers. But at the same time, you can become trapped in your own system thinking that it’s working for you. you had this annual planning process, but it wasn’t actually creating the life that you wanted because of the victimhood or the blame.

[00:06:44] what do you think are the traps? what keeps people stuck in that loop of thinking they’re doing a good thing, like they have a good process, But the process isn’t actually working. 

[00:06:54] Robert Hunt: the core to accountability is vulnerability. Now, people who work with you, they have a benefit because when you tell a coach, this is what I’m going to do, the coach can go, really?

[00:07:06] Okay. Well, how’s it going to work? And how’s it going to align with the other goals that you set? And you told me you wanted to spend more time with the kids, but you tell me the solution is this. Those two don’t align. So tell me how that’s going to work. And the problem is we don’t let people know our real truths because we don’t want them to really get in our bidnet and tell us what to do.

[00:07:25] And so we just kind of let them know a little bit of our plan. And we kind of spin it a certain way. And, you know, even Kathy and I would have all these plans that we’ll, we’ll do this and we’ll cut back here. We’ll cut this. And no, man, you were 90, 000. There’s no cutting. You’re not going to make that by cutting corners.

[00:07:39] we invited a financial advisor to come to our home and we paid him 250. To sit and look at our finances and go, here’s where we spend our money. Here’s what we want our life to look like. What do you think? And he’s like, Oh my gosh, is this how you guys live? And he was brutal. He was really, he was in our face and we’re like, yeah, this is kind of how we do stuff here.

[00:08:00] we could have run secret. Nobody would ever know. We lived in a beautiful house with a movie theater upstairs, and we were in a really great neighborhood. Everybody was really well off. Nobody would have ever known. But when you invite someone in. And you’re truly vulnerable and honest. You can actually get help.

[00:08:18] But as long as you keep spinning it in a way that lets you feel good about yourself, you remain a victim. 

[00:08:25] Zach White: Robert, you’re sharing my story in that narrative. You know, I got into my engineering career, hardworking, super intelligent, wanted all the accolades and success and promotions. And I was one of those guys, like, let’s go for it.

[00:08:40] And on the outside, I made it look to everyone. Things were going great But on the inside nothing was working. My marriage was collapsing I was really unhappy, but I didn’t know what to do with it. And I just wanted everybody to see the perfect version I didn’t show up with vulnerability until it was too late divorce and depression and I tell people during that rock bottom moment when it all turned around was when I finally told the truth, I finally opened up, in this case to my therapist and my mom and my sister about what was really going on.

[00:09:17] That’s what allowed me to start healing and rebuilding faith and family, et cetera. So you mentioned accountability and vulnerability are linked 

[00:09:28] Robert Hunt: together. 

[00:09:28] Zach White: what do we do if we’re not? Courageous enough to be vulnerable. Does that just leave us, you know, you have 

[00:09:37] Robert Hunt: to want it bad enough. You know, what we say is when the pain of where you are is worse than the pain of where you’re going to go, you will change.

[00:09:44] And with Kathy and I, we had years of kicking it down the road, thinking next year, next year, next year. And then when we didn’t start out owing 90, 000, it was 5, 000 and it was 20, 000. And then it was 40, 000. And it just kept going up and going up. And, um, and, and, Every year we’d say, well, this or well, that, or, well, I don’t know.

[00:10:01] And, you know, well, we couldn’t do this and all these things that were just self limiting because we, we only said, these are the rules. This is all you’re allowed to do, but the world was this big. And all we were willing to do was this. A lot of times we say we can’t do something, but what we really mean is I won’t.

[00:10:18] And the longer I kept saying, we kept saying, I won’t, I, or I can’t, we can’t sell our house. We can’t cut back here. We can’t do this. Yeah, you can. And you know how, you know, you can. When you have to, when you lose a job and all of a sudden you don’t get to stay in that country club anymore because it’s 650 a month.

[00:10:36] You don’t get to have that car because it’s 800 and some dollars a month. You know, all these things that you started looking at that you can’t get by with what you certainly can when you have no choice. So why wait till it’s ripped out of your hands? 

[00:10:49] Zach White: Why not 

[00:10:49] Robert Hunt: own the journey that you want? I always tell my clients, are you trying to optimize a crappy life that you ended up with?

[00:10:56] Why don’t we just pull back, look at the life you want, and let’s build that one. Because I think most people spend their lives trying to optimize the crappy situation they ended up in. Instead of really being willing to step back and go, okay. This is what I want my life to look like. This is what I want my marriage, my faith, my health, my friendships, my money, all this stuff.

[00:11:16] I want it to look like this. Great. Let’s work backwards. That’s what we do in a company. That’s what my CEOs do with their business every year. This is the company I’m chasing. This is where I’m going. All right. Well, what do we need to do this year to get there? And we just keep working backwards. Why don’t we do that for our lives?

[00:11:33] Zach White: So let’s say I’m bought in Robert. You’re right. I’ve been optimizing around the edges of an overall crappy life. I need to really buy in and be vulnerable and I’m ready to make the change. So how do I do it? where does that actually begin? And if you’re talking about accountability in particular, what does that look like?

[00:11:53] How do we step into this? Tell us what you’ve discovered and how you would coach your clients. what is the. Way that we bring this energy of accountability to life. 

[00:12:04] Robert Hunt: When they’re truly bought in, when I’m really truly bought in, I’ve already worked through the lies that have held me back. And it’s not until you get to the point where you say nobody cares that you’re really bought in.

[00:12:14] So quickly, the book outlines this premise. You’re unaware of what accountability looks like. When you do, you blame, you make excuses, you say you can’t, or you wait and hope. And those four things hold you as a victim. No one wants to be a victim, but we play a victim too often. And until you’re willing to say, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, nobody cares.

[00:12:34] Unless I cared enough to do something about it and when I care enough to do some about it I gained the power and opportunity to change everything in my life So everything is up for grabs at that point And so then you have to start on the journey towards accountability The first thing you do is you acknowledge real quick 

[00:12:52] Zach White: before you go to that Can you list those four things again?

[00:12:56] Because that was a really powerful list. These are things that will hold you back or keep you stuck in the lack of accountability. What were the 

[00:13:02] Robert Hunt: things that make you play a victim role when you’re not even aware of it? And they’re the chapters of our book, blame excuses saying I can’t and waiting and hoping.

[00:13:12] Oh wow. And I do those in different levels at different things. In some area, I might be waiting, hoping, you know, even those of us who are followers in Christ, we look at our lives and the Bible says, wait upon the Lord and he’ll renew your strength. That’s not sitting around doing nothing. That’s active waiting.

[00:13:27] That’s doing something, but God can’t steer a boat that isn’t moving. And for you to sit there and wait for God to show up and do something, he doesn’t work for you. He expects you to be a farmer and he’ll bless the crop you planted, but you got to plant the crop and then you got to pull the weeds and keep the animals out of it.

[00:13:42] You still have work to do. So we’re not sitting around waiting unnecessarily and blindly waiting for God to fix our problems. We have work to do. So all those four things that we go through gets us to the point where it was, okay, nobody cares. I’m going to own it. And then we go on to this journey of creating a way to get better.

[00:14:00] Okay. And the first thing is you acknowledge the reality of where you are. We acknowledge that we had equity in our home and we could sell our home and use that to pay everything. The second thing you do after that is you embrace the suck. And that’s a chapter it’s called embrace the suck. That’s Salem who coauthored this book with me was in the military and they have a phrase embrace the suck.

[00:14:19] And it sucked to sell our house. It sucked to tell our neighbors when they saw for sale sign, Hey, you move and where are you going? Oh, we’re going to try and find a place that’s a lot cheaper because we can’t afford the life we created. They were not ready for our honesty at that moment, but I had to own it.

[00:14:33] I had to tell people, this is my second alcoholic saying, Hey, I don’t drink because I’m an alcoholic instead of just going, no, I’m okay. you clear it. You say, boom, this is my issue. So we embrace the suck and then we find a solution. And it was amazing how easy the solutions came to us. Once we had embraced the suck because we knew this is going to suck.

[00:14:53] And before you acknowledge the suck, that solution is not that great. Cause that’s hard work. I don’t like that one. I don’t want to move to that area and I can’t live in that house. Look, it’s going to suck. So let’s get our head around it. It’s going to suck. Now get over it. Now, when you look at that place to rent and you’re like, that’s not so bad.

[00:15:08] I mean, versus living in an apartment that I’m sharing with some other people. I mean, I could go that route, right? Go share a home with somebody. So you embrace the suck, you find a solution and you make it happen. And the make it happen one really is made possible by surrounding yourself with people. Who will fight for you, encourage you, support you and kick your butt when they need to, but that’s where the vulnerability comes.

[00:15:30] Nobody can hold you accountable. Only you can hold yourself accountable if you want to. And one of the ways to make that happen is surround yourself with other people who will be on the journey with you, who will say the hard things in truth. that’s what I do for a living. I run peer groups with other business owners who get in a room and tell each other every month, this is my struggle.

[00:15:50] This is my problem. These are my challenges. And we all go, yeah. I know what that’s like. Well, here’s what I do. Here’s what I do. What are you going to do? And we ask questions and we challenge, but everybody owns their own journey. No one’s doing it for each other, but we’re on the journey together. 

[00:16:03] Zach White: I was just in a session with Cody Sanchez, who’s pretty big in the personal finance and small business world these days.

[00:16:09] And she said. That you are where you are because you’ve done what you wanted instead of doing what’s required. And that reminds me of what you just are talking about in these steps, Robert. It’s like, even if you’re willing to embrace the suck and find a solution, you still got to do what’s required.

[00:16:25] You got to make it happen. And we end up in these unhappy, unpleasant situations because we’ve, Up till this point done the easy thing or done what we’ve wanted or look beyond our means and look where it got us. Yeah. So something you said triggered me because it’s not the way I would frame it and I want to dig into it.

[00:16:45] You mentioned nobody can hold you accountable, 

[00:16:48] Robert Hunt: right? 

[00:16:49] Zach White: I’m a big fan of accountability partners. And I leverage my accountability partner in a big way, and I encourage my clients to have relationships built around accountability. I don’t know that we’re at odds with it, but I want to hear your perspective.

[00:17:04] How does what you just said, that nobody can hold you accountable, relate to the community aspect that you were talking about being surrounded? What is an accountability partner, and how is that different from what you just said? 

[00:17:18] Robert Hunt: And in the concept of accountability, nobody can do it for you, so I can’t make you accountable, but I can ask you questions, I can encourage you, I can check in with you, but you can lie to me.

[00:17:29] And a lot of times in our journey, I have lied. How are things going? We’re doing good. We’re doing good. Well, great. What are you working on? I think things are good when they’re not. And so even that accountability partner who’s calling you and asking you in genuine sincerity, if you lie to them, it doesn’t work.

[00:17:46] So they don’t have the power. And what happens is we get an accountability partner. And then we put the weight on them. Well, I have a buddy. He’s checking in on me. It’s not his job to do your accountability. It’s his job to check in on you from time to time. But what are you gonna do? You’re gonna call him and say, you didn’t look at my finances very well.

[00:18:02] You didn’t manage my checkbook very well. It’s not his job. Their job is to join you in the journey. Of your vulnerability. And if you’re not going to be really vulnerable and honest, it doesn’t work. I’d been in a men’s accountability group in my church when I was younger. And I remember being with this guy for years.

[00:18:21] And then one day out of the blue, he’s like, yeah, we’re getting divorced. I’m like, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. Where’d that come from? 

[00:18:26] Zach White: Yeah. How is that possible? 

[00:18:28] Robert Hunt: We meet every week for the last three years. And you’ve never said a word about your marriage. Yeah. We haven’t been getting along for a long time. What the heck?

[00:18:34] What’s this accountability group for? And so I think we take the heat off ourselves by being in some place where we’re in an accountability group with accountability partner. But if you’re not truly doing it right, which is vulnerability and honesty connection with them to that level of vulnerability, it doesn’t work.

[00:18:52] Zach White: Yeah. I really appreciate the clarity there. And I totally agree. that at the end of the day, you are responsible for yourself. We use the phrase radical responsibility at Oasis of Courage. when I describe the dynamic of an accountability partnership, say, Look, first of all, there needs to be an equal commitment.

[00:19:14] to your own journey. Like you need to be committed to your growth. That person needs to be committed to their growth, and it needs to look similar in terms of your hunger and commitment and drive towards wherever it is that you want to go. Because it’s no fun to be in an accountability relationship with somebody who’s not going on the same journey that you’re going on.

[00:19:34] Uh, it’s just doesn’t have that energy. Maybe in a different 

[00:19:37] Robert Hunt: category, but it’s still the process. There’s still work in the process. 

[00:19:40] Zach White: Yeah, sure. Absolutely. Right. You don’t have to be on the exact same company or same trajectory, but at least we’re both aiming for similar types of goals. Yeah, it helps not required, but it really helps if you have that.

[00:19:50] But the piece that I think is the same is I described to people. Look, I I’m, if you and I, Robert are in a accountability relationship, I’m not responsible for your results, but I am responsible to you as your partner and friend and colleague and accountability commitment. I’m responsible to you. I’m not responsible for you.

[00:20:11] if I don’t check in when I said I would, that’s on me, but if you don’t do what you said you’re going to do, or you lie to me, you’re not, you don’t have the courage to be vulnerable. Uh, that’s, that’s on you. 

[00:20:22] Robert Hunt: That’s probably a good time to remind everyone the difference between responsible and accountable.

[00:20:26] Responsible is doing something, accountable is owning it. And so I can be responsible. I could show up at my job every day. I’m responsible. And I give you a paycheck because of that responsibility. But what I want for you is to actually give a damn. I want you to care about my business like I care about my business.

[00:20:44] I want you to think, well, wait a second, the purchasing guy didn’t order that. I’m not in purchasing, but I am in operations. And I see that the shelf is empty and it’s been empty for a few days. And I know we have an order coming up and I go and I talk to the guy, Hey, did you order this? Oh, I did not. Now you could easily say, that’s not my job.

[00:20:59] And people who say that’s not my job are responsible. To the job they have, but they are not accountable to the goal of what we want, which is a successful business where you continue to get a page check, maybe even grow. And so I think we need to teach our people. I’m not looking for you to show up and punch the clock.

[00:21:16] I want you to be accountable. I want you to think about what we do. I want you to be off your Facebook page, caring about the productivity of the day and not being so bored that you have all this downtime to just do other 

[00:21:28] Zach White: stuff. So Robert, how do you, as a leader, Create that kind of a culture of accountability.

[00:21:34] what does that look like in the practices? Are there tools or systems or ways that that’s embedded into the DNA and culture of a team? 

[00:21:45] Robert Hunt: you can teach the principles of accountability to each person, but again, they’re responsible. To be there and listening and learn it. And then they’re accountable to what you expect of them.

[00:21:55] And if they’re not, then they can’t be a part of your team. But I think the reason why people don’t get excited for where where they’re working at is the leader hasn’t created a clear vision of what we’re doing and why we’re doing it when we talk about delegation. This is a great principle for the problems we’re having at people working at home is that we haven’t effectively delegated to them.

[00:22:16] We haven’t told them the why behind some of the behaviors. So when they do the minimum they have to do. We’re being responsible. I hate to do air quotes. I don’t know if I have to do that anymore. We’re being responsible. I went, I punched in for the day and I was responsible to answer every email that came my way.

[00:22:33] we’re not giving them a vision of where we’re going, that they get excited, that they think beyond the tasks they’re doing to the reason behind it and take it up to a level that they can actually say their account. 

[00:22:45] Zach White: The very first thing you said, I want to go back to because It takes major courage as a leader to believe and act on what you said, which is, hey, if the person’s not committing and buying in and showing up with that spirit of accountability, then they can’t be on the team.

[00:23:03] If you want to build a company with a culture of accountability, once you’ve given someone every ample chance to learn it, embrace it and live it, if they don’t or won’t. They can’t be on the team. that’s a hard line. You know, most people that doesn’t go in a vacuum 

[00:23:20] Robert Hunt: though. There’s a lot of other things that affect it.

[00:23:22] If I have a bad boss and I’ve not reigned in the behavior of other people, some people have given up because why would I even try this guy? I work for such a jerk. Okay. So part of our job responsibility as a CEO owner of the company is to have created a vision where everyone can get excited. But we also have to look at all the people that are playing to make sure everybody is owning this.

[00:23:41] One leader can be very detrimental to the followers that are out there deciding to give up on stuff, but if you’re going to be someone who’s creating a place where everyone owns it, you have to give them clear and compelling communication, the tools to do their job, the training to do it well, and then you can hold them to a level of accountability that everyone would rise up to.

[00:24:02] But if I’m not creating all those first three things, I can’t delegate, then people can’t be accountable because they don’t know where the heck we’re going. 

[00:24:08] Zach White: Yeah, that’s going to resonate with so many. Engineers who I coach, managers, senior managers, directors, they have great intention, Robert.

[00:24:17] They want to lead well, they want to accelerate their own career and see the teams that they lead succeed. But one of those pieces is missing either their VP or their director above them isn’t living this. So they’re working for a bad boss or they don’t have the tools or they’re not given. the things they need to actually embrace it.

[00:24:38] So they feel trapped. What would you say to somebody, if you were coaching someone who’s like, Robert, I, I want to make a difference in my company and lead this way, but you know, I’m just a senior manager at fill in the blank fortune 500 organization. And my boss doesn’t get it or doesn’t care.

[00:24:54] We don’t have the tools to do that. Like. 

[00:24:56] Robert Hunt: Let’s go back to that whole principles of accountability and let’s look at where they’re playing a victim in that conversation. Hey, I got a bad boss and I can’t. Well, I’m just saying the word. I can’t. So do you mean that you won’t? What am I gonna do? Go tell him that he’s a bad boss.

[00:25:11] Yeah. And what if he doesn’t change? So what could you do? I could go get another job. Yes. You could also go to the CEO and say, do you know what Joe’s doing in our department? Do you know I had a candid conversation with him? You know, the Bible says if you have a problem with someone, you go to them privately, one on one, you try and address it.

[00:25:29] If that doesn’t work, you take another buddy with you and they collaborate the perspective. So take a buddy with you and go, look, me and Susan, we both agree, you’re doing this wrong. You’re being rooted. And if the guy says, get out of my office, then you go to the CEO and you say, Hey, this is not working.

[00:25:44] And because of this guy, we’re thinking of leaving this company. So to let you know that. And then if the CEO goes, I don’t care. Great. Go find another company. But what you can’t do is stay there as a victim and go, I’ve got a crappy company with a crappy culture with a crappy boss. Why are you working there?

[00:26:02] Zach White: I love this. So back to the. things we do that block us from Really living accountability. It’s going to show up there again, this little simple framework you shared. I know this is a total sidebar, but this is really powerful for someone who is struggling in a relationship at work, colleague, boss, they’re stressed about it.

[00:26:21] They’re anxious about it. It’s not working. It’s toxic. It’s bad for whatever reason, go have the one on one conversation, the courage to be open and vulnerable. If that blows up in your face or doesn’t go well. Bring someone you trust, another colleague, or it could be HR, into that conversation.

[00:26:40] Have the conversation again. And if that also blows back, now you have, a reason to say, let’s skip level or let’s go above and actually have the conversation. I think a lot of people, Don’t want to do those first two steps. They just want to go straight to their boss’s boss or straight to somebody and complain about having a bad leader.

[00:27:02] And so I really love that piece. if somebody’s scared to have that first conversation, Robert, what would you encourage them in? How do you appropriately, how do you confidently go in and not be a victim, but also handle that in a way that’s, likely to be impactful or with grace, what does that look like?

[00:27:21] Robert Hunt: each person has to have version of what motivates them to do something. No one can motivate anybody, but you can create an environment where someone will self motivate. you can’t get the kind of support to build the team that you’re looking for, imagine that your options and if you’re going to leave.

[00:27:39] Do you care enough about that person to want to help them? Can you show enough love to that human to push past your fear? And if you don’t really want to be there, then you can go but you know, maybe that person’s going through a divorce Maybe that person’s kid has a disease and they’re trying to get through the journey of that Maybe they’ve been in a really tough relationship that just they bring it to work every day Where does your willingness to love other people empower you to care for someone outside of your own comfort zone?

[00:28:07] which is Another word for fear. And so if you really care about them, then be willing to go and invest in them. And you know, if you lose the relationship and they’re just a jerk, man, you don’t want to work there. Go find a job. Well, I can’t afford to work so much. Yes, you can. I’m telling you, you can.

[00:28:23] Because when you get fired, you do seem to get by and find another job. You do seem to get by without any money. All these fears that we throw on ourselves. I can’t, I can’t. It’s not true. I don’t want to, I don’t want to go without money. But when I’ve been out of a job for a year, somehow I got by. And so why not just take an ownership of it and live the life you really want.

[00:28:43] Come on, 

[00:28:44] Zach White: this is so good. You’re taking me to a call I had with an engineering senior manager this week, Robert, and she is burned out. She is stressed out, anxiety and fear and just nothing in her life is working. And we got on this call. And I mean, I thought. We were going to get lost in the muck and mire of how terrible the whole situation was.

[00:29:06] There’s so many winding roads she took me down and I finally said, well, look, are we ready to take action to do something about this? Here’s the plan. Let’s lay it all out. She was getting so excited about this opportunity to take action and make a change and then said, okay, well, we’re going to meet at this time for our next session.

[00:29:24] And she said, oh no, I have a meeting at that time. I can’t do it. I actually have meetings all day. I can’t do it anytime. I can’t. And they can immediately fell into this trap and just said, you know what? I just don’t think it’s going to work to do coaching at all because I just can’t fit this into my schedule.

[00:29:38] And it was amazing how fast. Just fell right back into the exact pattern of thinking and behavior and victimhood that created all of that garbage in the first place and wouldn’t take action because I can’t skip one meeting. It’s like 

[00:29:53] Robert Hunt: well, that’s you That’s your role as a coach to have to get people to a place where they can go do I want this bad enough because you can’t make anybody do anything And again, this is where accountability only works if they want to be accountable, but she has to have enough vision of why she wants something and enough pain to be willing to change it.

[00:30:11] you probably do the same thing as I do as a coach. I never tell people what to do. I ask them, what do you want to 

[00:30:16] Zach White: do? That’s right. 

[00:30:16] Robert Hunt: And if you ask her, what would it be like to leave? What would it be like to stay? What would it be? What would it be like if you miss this meeting? And if they’re locked up, man, you can’t make them.

[00:30:23] That’s you’re going to have to wait until they’re ready. when the pain of where you are is worse than the pain of where you’re going to go, you will make the change. And I guess she doesn’t have enough pain yet. 

[00:30:33] Zach White: Well, good news, Robert is luckily because of being in a live coaching conversation to your point was able to just say, well, hold on one second, 10 minutes ago, didn’t you just tell me that you’re not sleeping, that the anxiety is hurting your health, that your relationships are falling apart, that you’re working 12 hours a day and you’re You’re burning out and unhappy.

[00:30:52] Is that still true now? Yes. Okay. So do you want to, you know, figure out a way to free up some time to take action or do you want to keep doing what you’re doing? Yeah. Luckily the answer was, Oh yeah. Okay. Good for her. You’re right. but sometimes you have to have that help, right? To put it right back in front of you and say, Hey, look at the pain.

[00:31:10] Are you sure this is the life you want? Let’s apply this to one other area. As far as leaders goes, I know you have some passion around this. Talked about it before the recording today. A lot of engineering managers are facing challenges with how their teams are distributed around the world. Some are onsite, some are remote.

[00:31:31] Many companies are struggling with back to office mandates and, employees are not happy about it and how to manage this sort of hybrid environment since COVID and it’s still kind of all a mess. What’s your perspective about. Accountability, working from home. Does it change anything?

[00:31:51] Where do you stand on it? What should we know about that space? 

[00:31:55] Robert Hunt: Yeah, there’s an awful lot of talk about this. We’ve heard quiet quitting and we’ve heard quiet staying and quiet cutting and all these things that are going on, but there’s nothing’s changed in the last 10 years, the Gallup poll that shows about the worker disengagement is the same percentage as it has been forever.

[00:32:10] It’s something like 63 percent of the people are not actively engaged at work. a lot of this problem is a lack of leadership, a lack of vision from the top or the inability to get it from the top down to the bottom rung. And so I think what we’re looking at at this point is for someone to say, if I’m going to have a workforce that’s remote, I have got to be so crystal clear as to the vision, the purpose, the mission, all the mojo behind what we do, That enables us to function without someone babysitting them.

[00:32:40] And we, I mentioned it earlier briefly, but in order to effectively delegate, you need clear and compelling communication, the tools to do it, and the training. And then you can have people be accountable. Well, as a CEO or owner of the company, you’ve got to create this, this clarity that everyone gets it.

[00:32:56] How do people that are part of a ministry that are all around the world seem to all be doing the same thing? Because they get it. They’re passionate about it. They go build a habitat for a home somewhere in some place. It’s totally different city state, but they’re all doing this thing and they all get excited and they give money to the charity and they work really hard and they brag about it and they care because they get the vision.

[00:33:18] You got people you pay a paycheck to and you can’t get them to do their work. And I think that’s on you as a leader. Because it starts with you to be accountable. Have you created something that is so exciting and so involved that they give a damn and they don’t because they don’t know where we’re going, what we’re doing.

[00:33:35] I got a bad boss. I can’t push. Piss it again. Customers that are problem. All these things that go on with the lack of clarity of the vision just makes you want to give up. So I think if we’re gonna have a workforce that is remote, you’ve got to give them all those tools And say, Hey, I don’t care what hours you’re at work unless you’re at a company where they need to be there answering the phone at a certain time.

[00:33:55] I don’t care what hours you do your work, just get everything done. Then the question is, well, what is everything? Great. That’s why we build processes and procedures with goals and KPIs. We lead people. And we manage processes. And we have leaders who are not good at, creating a process. So they just try to manage people.

[00:34:14] So go back and let’s get some processes and goals and tools and all those things that a healthy business needs. So you can leave me alone. I’ll do my job. I’ll rock it. And then when I’ll be done so early, I can come back and ask for more. But that comes back to a culture of, Hey, we don’t just do our job.

[00:34:30] We do what needs to be done to be delivering the overall value of the company. So if I’m done, I’ll call back and say, I need more work. 

[00:34:38] Zach White: So good lead the people, manage the process. And so it sounds like in your perspective, if you’re willing to create clear communication, you provide the tools, the training and hold people accountable and let them hold themselves accountable.

[00:34:52] It shouldn’t matter if they’re in an office or anywhere else that can be done with a great vision as a leader. Anyway, that’s your perspective. 

[00:35:02] Robert Hunt: Yeah. One thing we create with my clients is something called the waterline, and it’s a one page document where we put our mission, vision, and values and purpose, if you have that clearly lined out.

[00:35:11] And then we put key policies and the goals for the year and just a couple of key policies that are really critical for where we’re going and a couple of key goals for the year. And then we give everyone in the company one page and anyone in the company can make a decision at any time, knowing their job, knowing the policies and procedures we run.

[00:35:30] This tool is the, I’m not sure what I should do question. Okay, well, if it’s above the waterline, I make my own decision. If it’s below the waterline, I call you, but we’re freeing up people to get things done quicker and move through decisions because we’ve added enough clarity of the why. And the way we do things and we’re making it so clear, everyone can be super productive because we’ve created this tool that moves past any kind of vagueness to a place of getting things done.

[00:35:57] Zach White: So good. Robert, a couple more quick things before we wrap up today. First, if I’m curious about myself or my team, where do we stand in our action and, and embracing, embracing. an accountability culture. How am I doing? What are the red flags that I would look for? What are the indicators that it’s not happening?

[00:36:20] Is there, you know, certain types of outcomes or certain patterns of vocabulary? I’ve heard you, you know, when the word can’t comes up might be a great example of that. What are the other little red flag or indicators that there’s work to do when it comes to accountability? 

[00:36:35] Robert Hunt: I think if we’d not built a culture of accountability, we know it.

[00:36:39] I mean, look around, if people aren’t doing what they say, we have a meeting, we all nod our heads. Yes, we will do this. And then we leave and nobody does it. And then we come back and nobody’s challenging him.

[00:36:50] Hey, we all said we’d have this turned up, but yeah, I didn’t get, I was really busy excuse. I was going to do that, but Joe said I didn’t have to do it. Blame. I don’t know how to do this. I can’t. I don’t have the skills. I can’t. You know, we look at all these things. So we see some of these key words, but more importantly, when it comes back and it’s not done, we don’t do anything about it.

[00:37:08] We go, well, you got to get it done next time, you know, and quarter after quarter, we let bad behaviors continue on. So we built this culture where no one takes anything seriously because no one ever gets fired. This guy’s a total jerk and he still has his job for six years. And we look around and we see all these things that go on and we just realize we know that we’re living in a place without accountability.

[00:37:29] I don’t think it’s a mystery. I think the bigger question is they don’t feel empowered to do anything about it. every company out there struggles with accountability. Every company does not a single company doesn’t. The question is, what are you doing to proactively build a culture where people want to be accountable?

[00:37:45] And that is an effort that we can do. It’s not hard. And it totally makes us more productive. Imagine every one of your employees being 25 percent more productive. How much more would that put on the bottom line? It’d be a fortune. So if you take the time to go and chase this and learn it and teach it and embrace it and do it, you’ll make so much more money.

[00:38:04] It’ll be sick. 

[00:38:06] Zach White: I love this. I’m, I’m fired up by this. And one of the things I’m passionate about is the reason I coach engineering leaders. I believe that the biggest problems in the world will only be solved when we unlock the biggest unused asset in the world, which is the potential of all these leaders who are in environments or For themselves living without accountability, living below their potential, all that unused energy that’s been bad systems, bad processes and bad leadership and lack of vision and all of these things and accountability.

[00:38:41] May very well be like one of those catalyst. It is to unlock everything. 

[00:38:46] Robert Hunt: It is. I’ve seen it with my clients. We’ve been living it out with our, in our peer groups for the last five years. it is real and we watch it. We call each other out. We’re honest and challenge each other. It is super clarity and it’s super powerful.

[00:39:00] Zach White: Robert, if someone wanted to. Shortcut to that first step of acknowledging reality. Obviously getting a copy of your book. Nobody cares until you do read it, embrace it, get help from Robert directly. Of course, a great idea, but you mentioned these steps, acknowledge reality, embrace the suck, find the solution, make it happen.

[00:39:18] Is there a simple exercise or something you would recommend somebody could do to just sit down and begin creating some inertia towards that first step of acknowledge reality? 

[00:39:29] Robert Hunt: the easiest thing is to take an assessment of where you are and look at those traps that you may fall into. If you go to nobodycaresbook.

[00:39:37] com, that’s our website, and in there there’s a satisfaction assessment that you can take for free. You don’t give us your information, we don’t want to send you an email, but we want you to have this assessment. Go take the assessment and be totally honest. Be radically honest. Nobody will see it.

[00:39:53] You don’t even have to print it out. You can just look at it and then delete it. But if you’re honest with yourself, how happy are, how satisfied are you with your sales department, with your finance department, with your marriage, with your health, with your faith, write them all out and look at them and be honest with yourself and go in light of the way I thought my marriage was going to be when I first got married.

[00:40:13] Here’s how satisfied I am in light of how I thought this company, this job was going to be when I took that job. Here’s how satisfied I am. And then based on that, then ask yourself, okay, now what am I going to do about it? And if you go to blame, make excuse, say, I can’t or wait and hope, you know, you’re in a trap.

[00:40:31] And that’s the first step towards moving past that. it’s not hard to figure out. You just got to want it. And the only thing that’s going to make you really do it is if you share it with somebody, share it with Zach, call Zach up. He’s your coach, Zach. Here’s what I said. Here’s what I have. I don’t want to deal with this, but I know I need to and, and show him what it is and talk about it or your spouse or your coworker or your best friend, but let someone be on the journey with you.

[00:40:58] Cause otherwise you’ll just put it away and you won’t do anything about it. That’s the first step. 

[00:41:03] Zach White: Amazing. Would you share the website again, if anybody wants to take action on that and where they can connect with you and your work and everything, you know, your book? How can people find you, Robert? 

[00:41:13] Robert Hunt: Yeah, the easiest thing is nobody cares book dot com.

[00:41:16] That’s our website. My contact information’s on there. I’d love to hear people as they buy the book there. It’s a workbook. So you apply it to your life. So when you start the journey, send me an email. Tell me what your journey is looking like. Tell me your satisfaction assessment. I don’t know you. I’m not going to judge you.

[00:41:32] Just send me a copy of it. Let’s just talk and I’ll support you. I genuinely read every single email that comes in and it’s important to me to be available for you. that is the easiest way to get ahold of me. I also have a unique URL for your podcast, which is Nobody cares, PO d.com. And anyone who fills out that contact form and puts in the code word, happy engineer.

[00:41:55] Then I will send a copy of my book so that they can have a free copy of the first two people who fill out that, that form. 

[00:42:01] Zach White: Wow. What a generous offer. Okay. Happy engineer, the first two people. So be quick. I’d encourage you to, jump into the show notes. We’re going to put, the link that Robert just mentioned.

[00:42:11] If you’re one of the first two to send that in, you’ll get a free copy of the book. I’d encourage you to do it regardless. Ask any questions that may have come up for you and get connected with Robert and his work. What a generous. That’s tremendous. Robert, this has been incredible and I’m excited to hear your perspective on this last question because it’s so closely related to the spirit of accountability.

[00:42:35] As a coach, and you know this in the work you do as well, we talk a lot about how questions lead, the answers follow. It’s the same in engineering, questions lead, answers follow. Everybody’s looking for better answers. But sometimes we forget to ask better questions. Yeah. So Robert, what would be the question that you would lead the happy engineer with coming out of our chat today?

[00:43:00] Robert Hunt: It’s the question I ask all my clients when I first meet them. Are you living the life you really want? And if you’re not, what are you willing to do about it? This is not a, uh, one of those phrases where you just get rich scheme or everybody should have whatever they want in life. I know life is full of challenges.

[00:43:19] We live in a broken world. with fallen broken people and a broken system. I get it. And we’re all going to die. Oh, that blah, blah. But the reality of it is you have more power and authority to make decisions over your life than you ever imagined. And it starts with you owning it. And when you own it and you don’t make blame or excuse or push it off, you have this amazing power.

[00:43:39] So if you’re not living the life you want, why? And then let’s work on that. 

[00:43:45] Zach White: Amazing. Are you living the life you really want? Sit with that happy engineer, be honest with yourself, and let’s get started on the journey. Robert, thank you so much for your generosity today. Just want to acknowledge you and your work, your incredible book, the coaching you’re doing, the lives you’re changing through a really important message of owning it, stepping into accountability and vulnerability and everything we talked about today.

[00:44:11] Just pure gold. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you. We’ll have to do 

[00:44:14] Robert Hunt: it again sometime. so much. Yeah, I appreciate it. It’s been really wonderful. Thank you.