The Happy Engineer Podcast

007: Why You Must Love Yourself to Love Your Engineering Career with Deb Crowe

In this episode, Heart-Centered Leadership expert and coach, Deb Crowe, goes straight to the heart of your career and engineering self-care for your life. Deb has held many hands during times of trauma, grief, loss, and she extends a hand of love to you today.

Discover the truth of how critical self-care is for engineering leaders and executives. Here’s a hint: it’s not an occasional chocolate bar or weekend getaway to an AirBnB. How can you know if you have a healthy self-care mindset? Deb will tell you.

Whether you have experienced trauma in your own life or not, if you are on the road to burnout or not, it doesn’t matter. Every engineer needs what Deb shares in this conversation. This is for YOU.


The Happy Engineer Podcast




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For all my heart centered, imperfect engineers out there, listen. This conversation is all about decisions, action, and actually changing your life for the better. Learning to love yourself, and take care of yourself. Be happier, achieve success and be fulfilled. Sounds pretty good, right? 

I want to call out one specific exercise that our guest, Deb Crowe, referenced in this episode. It happens to be an exercise I do with all of my clients. A self-audit of your time. This is an exercise that is worth revisiting again and again and again. I do this about every six months. How do you do it? Most people simply look back on your calendar retroactively—the last two weeks, the last four weeks, for example. That’s a good start, but just looking back doesn’t give you a true representation of the data on where you’re investing your time. 

The reason why is that we all have our own lens, our own selective memory on how we remember the past. If I ask you to reflect on something from the past, you have already and automatically filtered it through your existing mindsets and beliefs. You’re going to look back at your calendar, and you’re going to see white space.

And you’re going to say, “See Zach, I’ve got time here where I wasn’t wasn’t wasting time.” But in reality, what may have been happening was a lot of small, trivial, time-wasting tasks instead of investing into the things that matter most. 

Or you’re going to look at big open blocks of time, like a Saturday or a Sunday and see all of that free time. But, in reality, a lot of that time gets burned on time killers that do not feed your happiness. It’s dangerous when you simply reflect back on your time, versus a proactive and intentional auditing activity of today onward.

I want you to take the next two weeks and self-audit your time each day. Exactly where did your time go, into which domains of your life? Be as specific as you need, but not so detailed you want to stop doing this because it’s too much work. Remember, we’re here to look at creating happiness and fulfillment across your whole life, so log all hours, not just work hours. 

I recommend 30 minutes as the increment of time to pause and capture your focus for that day and where your time went. It’s usually accurate enough. Another approach my Clients use is to simply document each task as you go. Do what works for you. 

Auditing is incredibly important to reveal the truth about where you’re investing your most precious resource—your TIME.

There’s so many things for us to apply from this conversation with Deb, I encourage you to listen to the whole talk. Here’s one more that I want to tease out because as engineers, it comes up a lot. What is your personality? Deb shared a really simple and powerful idea that personality is memorized emotion. It’s an emotional home. It’s the place that you go when you’re in your default settings, emotionally. 

I like this way of thinking about personality. It gives you hope that you can change. Here’s what I believe with my whole heart, because I’ve seen it’s true.

When you have a growth mindset, when you believe that any area of your life can mature, grow and develop—even your personality—this memorized emotional home is able to be shifted and changed over time.

That is your future personality. Take that part of your life that’s unfulfilling today and make it more fulfilling tomorrow. You can change that. And if you’re hesitating on first steps, schedule a call with the OACO team so we can get you on the track to success and positive change.

Previous Episode 6: Defeat Doubt with Dean Karrel




Deb Crowe is a Certified Professional Life Coach and one of the first in Canada to be a certified Habit Finder Coach from the Og Mandino Leadership Institute. Deb’s specialty is coaching leaders, executives and their teams. Deb’s coaching passion Is helping individuals prioritize their time and attention. Life is about progression, moving forward and not attempting to have perfection.

Deb started her entrepreneurial journey at the young age of 24. She is an out-of-the-box and innovative thinker who loves to learn and create. She is a true Multipreneur. She has worked all over the globe, across various sectors and prides herself on both executive and life coaching.

Deb attended Brock University and The Richard Ivey School of Business for Entrepreneurship. Deb has co-authored four books since 2015 and is currently working on her first solo book on self-care. Deb is the founder of the Women’s Self-Care Conference. Deb launched this conference in October 2018 and has taken it across Canada with a complete emphasis on self-care.





Please note the full transcript is 90-95% accuracy. Reference the podcast audio to confirm exact quotations.

Zach White: [00:00:00] Welcome back engineers. It’s amazing to be with you again, I’m super excited for today to be with Deb Crowe. Deb is a certified professional life coach, but so much more than that. I’m excited. You know, Deb was one of the first in Canada to be certified in the habit finder, coaching principles, Og Mandino who I loved the Og Mandino leadership Institute.

[00:00:23] I’m excited to hear more about that. Deb started as an entrepreneur at age 24 and has been all around the world, doing all sorts of things for a while now. And I’m excited to know how coaching and entrepreneurship and all of these experiences weave together. And for those of us who are in engineering and have suffered on the side of life, that leads to burn out and frustration and the some cases.

Expand to Read Full Transcript

[00:00:49] Really challenging permanent consequences of those side effects of our careers. Deb has some amazing experience to share with us around how her work was directly related to helping people like us recover from those challenges and, you know, authored four books since 2015 and currently working on her first solo book on self-care, which such an important topic, especially at the time of the world that we’re in right now.

[00:01:15] Deb, thank you so much for making time to be with us today.

[00:01:19] Deb Crowe: [00:01:19] Oh, I’m excited to join you. It’s nice to be on the other side of a mic with a fellow podcaster. So congratulations on your podcast and excited to see what you’re going to do.

[00:01:31] Zach White: [00:01:31] Absolutely. And for those who didn’t catch onto that, Deb has an amazing podcast of her own that we’re going to talk about later, and you definitely want to catch the heart-centered leadership podcast from Deb, Deb.

[00:01:43] I alluded in that intro to your work that you started in, in helping, you know, engineers and others. When we came into the challenges of life that career can lead us to, can you just start us there with where that work began for you in helping folks who suffer from burnout?

[00:02:03] Deb Crowe: [00:02:03] Absolutely. I was in university.

[00:02:06] I was going to be an occupational therapist and I had to quit university because my dad was sick and I became my dad’s caregiver and I lost my dad at 21 years old. So I grew up really quick, really fast, and I was plunged into the medical world. You know, just totally overwhelmed with diagnosis and symptoms and terms.

[00:02:30] And I was a kid like that’s a formidable time in your life. So I, um, took a little time cause I needed a degree that was a tremendous loss. And my mum was very, very ill as well. Mental illness, there was no support. So that’s where the, the, the grit and the resiliency started in my life. And I realized I can bounce back from hard things.

[00:02:58] And I just, I went back to work cause I had to, I had to support myself and then I slowly went back to school. And then at 24 I started my business and I was a disability case manager. So I looked after people that would get in car accidents or workplace accidents, or would go off on a short-term disability claim because of stress.

[00:03:25] So the population that you serve, I also served as well. And I think the message that I would love to convey today is no job or no dysfunctional culture is worth jeopardizing your health. And I mean that by physical health and mental health,

[00:03:53] Zach White: [00:03:53] Dave, this is a really, you know, vulnerable area of life. And thanks for just being willing to share that with us.

[00:03:59] Yeah. Tell me a little bit about what that was like when you say, you know, you know, that. Period of grieving there during that time, did it’s solidify your, your desire to want to go in and, and help people who are sick, you know, and, and did it kind of drive your purpose or did it steer you in a different direction?

[00:04:17] Like what, what was that time of discovery and, and healing really like for you?

[00:04:23] Deb Crowe: [00:04:23] You know, it was all encompassing. It was, it was hard. Like people think that successful people have everything. And I was leading my company. I had friends that were dropping off because the more success I had, the more friends I lost and it wasn’t until I hit about 28, 29, where I got some mentors who were farther down that entrepreneur highway that said.

[00:04:54] Welcome to leadership. Like it can be really lonely and the more success will you get, not everybody can handle it. And I thought, wait a minute, a year, like I thought this was supposed to be, you know, a fun journey. It was really lonely. Um, the grief is it’s grief. It’s messy. You got to go through it.

[00:05:12]There’s there’s no under there’s no over it’s, it’s straight on through. And you know, you go through the cycles. What it did for me was it instilled a level of empathy and compassion that just added to my resilience. And I think that’s what led me to the work I’m doing now, which I know we’ll probably unpack during this interview, but, you know, I just, I had to muddy myself through grief because there’s no timeline for that.

[00:05:41] And I landed up getting certified in grief and bereavement because I just thought maybe down the road I’ll help somebody. And. You know, after my dad, I, I got engaged and it was hard. I didn’t have my dad to walk me down the aisle. And then I lost my brother or our first I lost my grandma right before my wedding.

[00:06:02] And then I, who I was super close with. And then I lost my brother and then I had lost a friend. And every time you lose someone, it’s called a trigger memory. Cause it brings you back to that deep visceral place in your gut where you’re like, oh my gosh, I don’t know if I can do this again, but you can, you just because every time you have that trigger memory, you go back to the tools that you put in that emotional tool kit, and you lean into the emotion and you pull out the agility and go, okay, this really hurts.

[00:06:35] And it sucks, but I’m going to get back up and, and I can do this. And that’s been my wheelhouse. That’s been my cognitive ability. I’m the queen of getting backed up. I’m the queen of failing forward because when you’ve been with people at end of life and you’re not at end of life, there’s always a strategy.

[00:06:57] There’s always a plan B

[00:07:01] Zach White: [00:07:01] Deb. How, how does it look different for someone to move through loss and come out the other side with grit and resilience and the qualities that have shaped your success in your, you know, looking at the journey you’ve been on versus, you know, sometimes we see people, maybe we’d say they don’t actually get through it, but, but those qualities don’t exist on the other side.

[00:07:24] And it’s almost like they’re just constantly, maybe stuck in that space of loss. Like what’s  what has to look different? How do we move through loss and get to that reward of the grit and resilience that you’re talking.

[00:07:37]Deb Crowe: [00:07:37] You have to, you have to be kind with oneself. You have to lean in to know who you are and have deep self-awareness, which stems from self-acceptance and you have to be willing to implement engineering self-care.

[00:07:54] And when I say self care, you know, that doesn’t mean a person, a thing, a place, you know, it’s, it’s not your buddies. It’s not the chocolate bar. It’s not sneaking away to an Airbnb for the weekend. It’s a mindset. So when you have the mindset to say, I’m going to be different here in love myself. I had really, really proper boundaries in place, and I just allowed myself that ability to fail forward.

[00:08:21] And I didn’t beat myself up emotionally, cognitively. I just, I allowed it to be.

[00:08:29] Zach White: [00:08:29] How would, I know if I have an engineering self-care mindset,

[00:08:34] Deb Crowe: [00:08:34] because you’ve lost the weight of other people’s opinions. That’s the best weight loss ever when you lose the weight of other people’s opinions and you do, what’s good for you in the moment you have self care because putting yourself first is not selfish.

[00:08:55] It’s vital.

[00:08:59] Zach White: [00:08:59] That’s not true of myself today. I heard like, I hear you, Deb. I want that mindset of self care. But what that question, if I can honestly say, I still really care about what other people are thinking, their opinions are influencing my decisions and actions. What’s the first step for someone who’s in that place.

[00:09:24] Like, Ooh, I want that mindset. Deb’s talking about. I clearly don’t have it right now. Where do you begin?

[00:09:33] Deb Crowe: [00:09:33] You have to do a self audit and you have to figure out where you spend your time. And when you do that self audit to realize what you do 24 hours a day, seven days a week, that hundred and 68 hours becomes pivotal to the point where it’s, eye-opening, it’s heart wrenching because you see where you’re not spending the time.

[00:09:59] And it’s usually, you know, not to be cliche, but it’s the aha moment for people. They’re like, I am not spending time where I should be, whether it’s with their spouse, with their family, with their extended family, whatever that may be. And people get succumbed into work life. They get on that leadership trajectory and they don’t realize that you can get to the top of that proverbial ladder, but here’s the secret sauce.

[00:10:28] Everything comes with a price.

[00:10:32] Zach White: [00:10:32] Everything comes with a price. How so? Health

[00:10:37] Deb Crowe: [00:10:37] wellness, mental health relationships, all the things that you see with leaders at the top, you know, we talked earlier about people think being at the top is the best leaders at the top are lonely and they’ve paid a price to get there.

[00:10:57] And it’s usually their health. You know, you can’t, we’re not meant to be on 24 hours a day. We’re not human doings. We’re human beings. And as a leader, you really need to model that heart centered leadership quality, especially self care, because when you put yourself first, it makes you a better leader because you’re putting that as a valued element of your leadership.

[00:11:24] Zach White: [00:11:24] So for the engineer listening, I want to re highlight this audit activity. You know, we, we are good at doing things as engineers and the being side needs some attention at times, but this is a really simple action to audit your time, really easy. And, and Deb, I’m imagining that a lot of people probably say, Hey, I, I know where my time goes.

[00:11:47] I have a calendar. I can just look back at the last two weeks and see where my time has been going. If somebody is in that kind of attitude,  like, well, I already know because it’s on my calendar. Accurate or would you say, no, you got to do it a different way.

[00:12:02] Deb Crowe: [00:12:02] It’s very accurate. And they say to me, well, that’s common sense and my responses, but your common sense is not common practice.

[00:12:11] And that’s when they get the, oh, if there’s no, if there’s no white space in your calendar, being busy is unproductive and unintentional. And I’ve worked with engineers and their technical people and they’re project based. And I get it, but you’re not going to give a hundred percent of yourself when you’re burning yourself out.

[00:12:34] Zach White: [00:12:34] Say that again, being busy is what

[00:12:36] Deb Crowe: [00:12:36] being busy is unproductive and unintentional. So when any of my executives say to me, I’m really busy. I’m like, tell me everything you did that was unproductive. I think the words busy, sorry, and just all need to be put in a trash bag and thrown out to the curb because it’s what I call unintentional language.

[00:13:03] If you want to be a leader in your craft, it doesn’t matter what industry, because we’re all in the people business. I think COVID has shown us that geographically. We’re a borderless global society of business. You need to be intentional with how you speak and how you spend your time and using those three words.

[00:13:22] They’re all unintentional

[00:13:25] Zach White: [00:13:25] busy. Sorry. Just, yeah. Wow. This is,

[00:13:30] Deb Crowe: [00:13:30] and just have me on the podcast. You invited me for

[00:13:33] Zach White: [00:13:33] a reason. Yes. I love the intentionality behind that. And I’m a, I’m a thousand percent behind you, Deb, on a global mission to stop using those three words. What I’ve found, I’m sure you probably see the same thing.

[00:13:46] Busy has become the new way to respond as a default for how are you doing? Oh, I’m really busy. And then we explain just how busy we are as if this is something to be proud of. What, what has caused that shift in our mindset toward busy-ness being good technology.

[00:14:07] Deb Crowe: [00:14:07] It’s all technology driven. When someone says that to me or I, or I get asked, what does your week look like?

[00:14:14] I always say intentional set the tone on Monday and live it out.

[00:14:24] Zach White: [00:14:24] Deb. Is it possible then to have both so to speak? You know, we, we said look leadership, which, you know, the engineer listening to this one. Happiness. They want success. They want career success and the sort of message like, Hey, if you move up, be prepared for the challenges that that brings, uh, you know, and then the consequences that you’ve seen play out in some really harmful ways when people do fall into the, you know, all the time is, is work and they’re not taking care of relationships, their health, et cetera.

[00:14:55] So is it possible to lead at those high levels and stay in that healthy whole life balance that you’re talking about? That’s

[00:15:05] Deb Crowe: [00:15:05] my coaching practice, what you just described. That’s why I made the transition because I lost five executives to cancer. And when I sat in hospice and held all of their hands, Zack, they, they all told me two things.

[00:15:20]I didn’t, I didn’t speak my truth. And I tolerated working in a dysfunctional culture. And it’s funny because my name became a pronoun. The verb, I always get called Deb pro. I never get called Deb. And when I was in hospice with all of them, it was moving, it was honorable. It was a privilege to be there with them.

[00:15:46] And they all said to me, you need to Deb Crow this. And I thought, okay. And I made a promise to them, all that I would do something. And what I did was I got out of that space of being D the disability case manager and managing their illness and their symptoms and trying to get them back to life. And in this case, I mean, after five and 10 months, I was like, okay, somebody is trying to tell me something here.

[00:16:14] I got to get ahead of the curve, just like engineering. I got to change this bell curve here. And I became a prevention NIST, and I did it through coaching. And then through COVID I created my heart centered leadership model and I’ve wrapped that around my coaching. So I specifically stay in my wheelhouse of coaching.

[00:16:35] I’m my background’s in neuroscience. I love everything to do with neuroscience and neurotrauma. Like there’s nothing I haven’t seen and it’s beautiful because I’m willing to have the hard conversations and take people where they’re scared to go. And I love what I do.

[00:16:53] Zach White: [00:16:53] So Deb, I’m scared to talk about five executives dying of cancer in 10 months.

[00:16:58] I mean, that’s not an easy thing to talk about

[00:17:03] Deb Crowe: [00:17:03] trigger memory, right. It brought me right back to my dad and I was just,

[00:17:08] Zach White: [00:17:08] Ugh, it was tough.

[00:17:12] Discover about yourself. And I mean that, that whole time of life. Wow.

[00:17:18] Deb Crowe: [00:17:18] Well, it was five and 10 months and it was kind of like, somebody was like, okay, you need to do something. You’re the girl to do this. What are you going to do? And I’m also a yoga teacher. So whenever I’m seeking, searching, I get quiet. I get on my mat.

[00:17:34]And uh, I set an intention and I gained clarity and it was like, okay, I’m going to find the right coaching certification for me. I always loved the principles of Og Mandino. I’d loved servant leadership, and I’ve just kept excelling with that since I made that decision. And now I’m, I feel like I’m in a really super hyper niched wheelhouse because the case manager shows up when I’m coaching, which I think is super cool.

[00:18:09] Zach White: [00:18:09] Deb. It’s really easy for me to put this story into its own special category because it’s kind of extreme like, oh, well I don’t have cancer and I’m pretty healthy today. And you know, maybe I’m working more than I should, but it’s okay. I’m making it work and I’m young and this is fine. And we kind of say, well, that’s Deb’s thing, but maybe I’m even tempted to stop listening to this because this has nothing to do with me.

[00:18:35] Right. I’m not on that path with any of these five executives have felt that way 10 years prior or 20 years prior and never saw where that road was, was leading or like, be honest with us. Like if we’re assessing our own journey, when do you actually wake up to the fact that you’ve passed that point of no return and, and I don’t know, what would you say to that person?

[00:19:00] Like, Hey, it’s more real than you think.

[00:19:04] Deb Crowe: [00:19:04] We

[00:19:05] can gain clarity by getting quiet. If you can’t get quiet, you need to implement some self-care and within self care, put some boundaries in place and do it without guilt chamber remorse, because everything we seek is inside of us.

[00:19:21] Zach White: [00:19:21] That’s beautiful. So, you know, maybe for an engineer, this is kind of a new concept.

[00:19:26]What do you, what do you mean get quiet? Can you just describe that practice? How would you do it? Yeah.

[00:19:31] Deb Crowe: [00:19:31] Cause I coach a lot of engineering self-care. You know what I want. I want every engineer listening to take your IQ and match it up and align it with your IQ because you can,

[00:19:46] Zach White: [00:19:46] I’m just going to let that, let’s let that go

[00:19:49] Deb Crowe: [00:19:49] because you can absolutely.

[00:19:52] Zach White: [00:19:52] Yeah. Let your EEQ match your IQ and this idea. Being quiet. It is an intentional action that shows up as time on our calendar. Am I

[00:20:07] Deb Crowe: [00:20:07] right? Yep. I, when I’m done with you today, you know, what’s in my calendar, I’m going to ride my bike.

[00:20:15] Zach White: [00:20:15] That’s awesome. I

[00:20:15] Deb Crowe: [00:20:15] put the self care, you know what? It starts in the morning with my morning routine. I work for the morning. I have lunch. I get outside even in the winter. And then at the end of the day, I still give myself time at my desk to just take a couple of breasts. Look at the day. How did it unfold?

[00:20:34] Because you can have an intention of three things a day. That’s doable, anything above three, you’re setting yourself up for failure. Three allows you to get three done and incorporate all the distractions, interruptions, et cetera. And even if you don’t get to the three, guess what? The good news. You can bump them to tomorrow

[00:20:58] Zach White: [00:20:58] in three areas of intention a day.

[00:21:00] What’s an example for you of what that would look like for one of your clients. What types of intentions to people set for the day

[00:21:08] Deb Crowe: [00:21:08] that I show up as a better version of Deb CRO than Deb Crow yesterday, that I’m totally present for my clients. I’m listening. I’m, heart-centered, I’m all in. I am present on every level of my being.

[00:21:24] Zach White: [00:21:24] I love the separation that I’m feeling between those intentions and maybe a specific tactical goal, which is where a lot of engineers, we, we live in that, like I’m going to get a done, then be done that seed on my checklist by to-do list. And what you described are directions of intention and. Do you have both in your life, the tactical, and yeah.

[00:21:45] Tell us about the balance.

[00:21:47] Deb Crowe: [00:21:47] You have to have that ebb and flow. Like I know the engineering mind is very systematic because they were trained all masking is that they, they lose a little, that of that. Let’s call it emotional rigidity. Okay. Let’s open up the bandwidth a little bit on the emotional cognitive bandwagon and let’s have a little bit of flowing.

[00:22:11] You don’t have to be, especially now working remote. You don’t have to be booked every second of the day. When do you get time to pause and breathe and get off soon and get away from your desk and stand up and maybe get outside, drink some water, kiss your kids, hug your partner, whatever it is. We have to have that flexibility in our day.

[00:22:37] We are not our current. Our career is one element of self, which is what we talked about. It’s that awakening of self-awareness, you know, I’m not just an entrepreneur, I’m a wife, I’m a mom, I’m a sister, I’m an aunt. I’m a friend. Like we wear multiple hats in one day. So, you know, a little neuroscience, fun fact for all the mathematical science whizzes, listening to this and engineering from the time you wake up in the morning until the time you go to bed consciously and subconsciously 35,000 decisions.

[00:23:13] So when you max out your schedule, you’re adding on to not have the clarity that you need to do those three things. So I’m asking you to, to loosen the schedule, allow a little flexibility. And the bigger thing for engineering is done is better than perfect.

[00:23:34] Zach White: [00:23:34] One of my favorite phrases. Tell us more about done being better than perfect.

[00:23:39] Nobody’s

[00:23:39] Deb Crowe: [00:23:39] perfect. I mean, it’s the name of my podcast for heaven sakes, imperfect. I would rather be a heart-centered leader and have a team of engineers that said, Deb, we did our best. It’s not perfect, but it’s progressive. And we did our best and here’s where we need some help. Best conversation

[00:24:00] Zach White: [00:24:00] ever.

[00:24:01] Yeah. A lot of engineers I’ve talked to Deb will say something in rebuttal to that, like, yeah, but you don’t know my boss or Debbie, you don’t know what the culture’s like at my company. And we have this disbelief that says, yeah, but not me. What would you ask or how would you approach that person’s perspective?

[00:24:23]Deb Crowe: [00:24:23] I, I call that. Yeah, but I notice and it’s related and the cousin to what if I notice? Um, yeah, but. Am I allowed to swear, I’m going to call bullshit. I want you to take your systematic approach of thinking that you bring beautifully to your craft of engineering. And I want you to bring intrinsic, which means people first, if you don’t know what you don’t know, and you’re like, yeah, but I want you to sit in that person’s chair metaphorically and see that project, you know, that barrier, whatever it is through their eyes, change your way of thinking.

[00:25:06] So you can talk and understand and foster your connection to get to where they want you to get to and where you’re struggling to get to. When you put people first and your heart centered, there’s never going to be a barrier. You will be a barrier.

[00:25:23] Zach White: [00:25:23] Ooh, when you put people first, you become a barrier breaker.

[00:25:28] Where do you see us fall short in that the most, like when you’re coaching someone, maybe they’re, well-intentioned like not many people I meet are going to boldly say, oh, I don’t care at all about other people, but, but then we look at what’s actually happening in life and there’s no fruit of that true heart centered in us and other people first step.

[00:25:51] So how do you, how do you get to where that’s not only something we say, but something that we live and it’s part of us

[00:25:59] Deb Crowe: [00:25:59] connection with people, relationships, getting to know people outside of engineering and structures and blueprint, drawings, and software applications. And who’s the person on the other side of the phone, the other side of zoom, you know, you can have all these initials after your name and have a connection with them.

[00:26:18] You can talk to something about something with someone and it doesn’t have to be the craft that you’re both involved in.

[00:26:28] Zach White: [00:26:28] This is so important. We can talk about this the whole rest of the day. Yeah. There’s something. And I remember back when I was a young engineer, Deb, I’ll just speak for myself and the engineer seeking engineering self-care listening can decide if the supplies for them. But I remember thinking, well, I, I only am going to get to know the people on my team well enough to get the result that I need from them, for the project.

[00:26:54] You know, there’s this sort of a totally bizarre mindset around, yeah. Networking is important because it’s going to serve the objective of the project. They had that kind of mindset. And what I’m hearing you say is, look, if you will pursue deeper connection with the human, for the sake of the company, Yes.

[00:27:13] That’s it. Get those other benefits? That’s yeah.

[00:27:19] Deb Crowe: [00:27:19] That’s the secret sauce right there.

[00:27:21] Zach White: [00:27:21] I love this centered. We could stop, right. I mean like engineers listen up. It’s not just because of the pragmatic outcomes of connection. And even if you’re okay, let’s, let’s take this one. Yeah. But I’m an introvert. Yeah.

[00:27:36] But you know, I don’t care or need all these things. Yeah. But I

[00:27:42] Deb Crowe: [00:27:42] can’t, it it’s going out to the trash with busy Justin. Sorry.

[00:27:47] Zach White: [00:27:47] Oh my goodness. This is a, this is a great day for the stop doing list. Yes. Sorry. And just, and, uh, and stop with this idea that relationships are there for the outcome, built the community and the connection for the sake of the community and the connection.

[00:28:03] That’s so important. Um, Deb let’s, let’s take that then, and kind of connect it to this other area of work that you do with, with habits and helping us to build some mastery around our subconscious, this idea of, you know, how do we find and build habits in our life and the work you do with the Og Mandino leadership Institute, where does that weave in to, you know, your coaching and how you help someone to create results in their life? How does that connect to engineering self-care?

[00:28:28] You have this heart centered intention that we’ve talked about, help us connect it to this idea of habits.

[00:28:35] Deb Crowe: [00:28:35] So I have an assessment, I call it the unpersonal tests because you may have heard of the disc or the Myers Sprague. I go beneath the surface of the water. So the personalities, the water personality is memorized emotion.

[00:28:56] I go beneath the personality and I figure out how you think about thinking. And then, especially with engineers, when I can show them how they think about thinking, that’s where the magic happens. And they’re like, how do you know this? And my response is data doesn’t lie because engineers are data people.

[00:29:18] Zach White: [00:29:18] They’re numbers. Yeah. No arguments on this podcast about the data. So this is a really interesting statement and, and I agree, but I don’t know that it’s always set or taught this way, Deb, that personality is memorized emotion. Yeah. So, so would you tell us, how do you feel about the statement? So my personality is just intrinsic to me.

[00:29:43] I was born with it and I can’t change it. What would you say to that?

[00:29:47] Deb Crowe: [00:29:47] I I’d be thrilled if it tells me that your parents brought you up well, and you put people first. We all think in three different ways we have intrinsic, which is people. First we have extrinsic, which is where we lean on the material, things in our life, like the CEO and the corner office with the fancy suit and the boat and the cottage and everything else.

[00:30:11] And then we have the systemic thinkers, which is your population listening, the engineers. It’s not a bad thing. It’s just their upbringing, their life, their work experience all brought into one and they’re just very black and white. And for whatever reason, they didn’t have that. EEQ aligned with their IQ.

[00:30:32] Um,

[00:30:34] Zach White: [00:30:34] and so if there’s an element of memorized the emotion in my life that I would like to change for whatever reason, where does that process begin?

[00:30:47] Deb Crowe: [00:30:47] You have to have a baseline of data. So once we can figure it. How you think, and then figure out and unpack why and what got you. There it’s like anything else, you set some goals and we have a timeline and we work on it together because being different is, is part of it, of being successful.

[00:31:10] So when you can say, you know, I don’t want to be just an engineer. I want to be an engineer with heart. I want to be an engineering project manager. That’s approachable. These are just some examples of people I’ve worked with. Yeah. And leaning into acknowledging. Where your faults are. I’m an introvert. I make excuses.

[00:31:35] I hate office parties. Like I don’t know what to say to people or the coaches there or reason. So I always believe much like that cliche, uh, that the, the teacher appears when the student’s ready. I think the coach appears in the trajectory of your career, especially if you’re a leader or you want to be a leader, or in the case of engineers, I see what I classify a lot as accidental leaders and I get them for coaching and they’re like, Deb, I don’t, I don’t want to lead people.

[00:32:07] Like I just want to go back to my office and, and, and do my drawings and deal with the contractors and the subcontractors. And that’s when I have to say, hold on a minute, somebody sees something thing in you that you are yet to see in yourself. And that’s where you open up Pandora’s box and then the EEQ starts to be developed, to catch up and align with the IQ.

[00:32:33] And it’s, it’s really beautiful to watch. And, you know, I, I’ve worked with so many different technical it’s the same with, uh, anyone in the biopharm or the biomed industry. They’re very technical as well. And that’s been part of their upbringing and life and academic experience. We all have the possibility to change

[00:32:55] Zach White: [00:32:55] Deb.

[00:32:55] I have an incredible privilege of working exclusively with engineers and coaching them. But one thing I see a lot at call it, you know, this sort of lone Wolf or the engineering ego that I can solve for these growth areas in my life, on my own, you know, whether it’s through reading or through, you know, listening to a great conversation like this and yeah.

[00:33:19] What would you say for someone, when is the right time? How do you know if coaching is really what’s going to help you to unlock that next level for you? If they’re in that mindset of like, I got this, so

[00:33:33] Deb Crowe: [00:33:33] let’s use a technical example to align this, an airplane in a holding pattern. It can’t land because of blank.

[00:33:46] There’s a mechanical, a technical issue. There’s something logistical going on. The pilot is lost when you’re on the same old, same old. And I often hear Deb I’m on this hamster wheel. How do I get off? Any engineer knows that you need to have tools and strategies in your toolkit, in your engineering arsenal.

[00:34:13] If you will. And sometimes you need an external source to come in. Who’s your safe space that you can be all that you are happy, sad, mad, glad, because it’s like grief. When I did my grief and bereavement training, I remember being trained by, I think the, the number one expert in the world. Who’s Dr. Allen Wolf it, and he said, grief is love with no place to go.

[00:34:43] I believe that ego is love with no place to go when someone has ego and they lack the confidence. That shows me that they’re not feeling liked. They’re not feeling valued and they haven’t been validated. So if you’re that person in the meeting that verbose, or you have to have the last word, or you’re the attention seeker on zoom, I’m going to ask you to turn the mirror back on yourself and do that self auditing that we talked about because the only person that needs to validate us is ourselves.

[00:35:23] And that’s the self-acceptance self-awareness piece that we talked about. It’s been very intersecting conversation here. Very good.

[00:35:31] Zach White: [00:35:31] And I love that. What you just said is that the coach is not there to validate you

[00:35:41] Deb Crowe: [00:35:41] tools and strategies, and we guide, we guide you to the light, and then we put you on your way. That’s another big, important point. Um, you know, hire a coach. That’s not CodePen.

[00:35:54] Zach White: [00:35:54] Amen set

[00:35:55] Deb Crowe: [00:35:55] your goals, do the work. And you know what, I’m still friends and colleagues with everybody I’ve ever coached is their future touchpoints. And they might switch jobs or need you here and there. Absolutely. But you don’t need a lifeline and a dependency on your coach if they’re doing a good job.

[00:36:12] So let’s deflate that elephant for sure.

[00:36:14] Zach White: [00:36:14] Yeah. This is really powerful, Deb. And I appreciate what you’re sharing. You know, the coach appears when, when you’re in that place, that holding pattern, you know what Deb just described resonates for you, the engineer listening to this, then, you know, don’t let your ego, and I love this. Engineering self-care starts right there.

[00:36:30] The idea that there’s, there’s love inside you with no place to go. Let’s unlock that. I mean, talk about powerful decision making was you can unlock that love and give it a place. And it’s not that you know, this coach is going to make you. Or affirm you in some way, you know, maybe there’s a fear in the back of our minds.

[00:36:47] Like, well, I don’t want to become dependent on this coaching thing or whatever. That’s not the point. It’s not the point just to unlock more of who you are, all red. That’s so beautiful. Deb, this mirror back on us. It’s a perfect place to land that plane today. And I’d love to go for another hour, but just to be respectful of your time, you know, I always end with this mirror question that great engineering, it’s just like great coaching where the questions that we ask lead and the answers follow.

[00:37:18] So if the engineer listening wants to be happy, what is the best question to lead them with? I

[00:37:28] Deb Crowe: [00:37:28] got it. It’s easy. Look in the mirror. Three words. Why not me?

[00:37:40] Zach White: [00:37:40] Why not me. Hmm. That is so beautiful. We’ll just going to let that marinate right there. I hope everybody listening takes that to heart. Deb, they’re going to want more from you and we didn’t take that much time to talk about your amazing podcast and season two launching. So I know you’ve got to tell us about that and where else can people find Deb Crow?

[00:38:06] Deb Crowe: [00:38:06] So Deb CRO has an E on the end. Everything’s there, there’s a, there’s a heart centered leadership toolkit. They can download for free. There’s a poster. If you’re thinking about being heart-centered, it’s there for you, the imperfect, imperfect, the heart-centered leadership podcast is, uh, we’re back at the beginning of June.

[00:38:28] This week’s for season two and it’s every Wednesday and Friday at one o’clock. And, uh, you can connect on socials and see it. And I’m going to have to have you come on over to. To my podcast so we can continue this awesome discussion. It’s been really

[00:38:43] Zach White: [00:38:43] lovely, man. I would love that Deb. And, and so it’s, you know, we’re coming into June, 2021 for those listening to this in the future, go check out season one of imperfect the heart-centered leadership podcast and get yourself jazzed for what Deb’s going to bring here in their season two.

[00:39:00] I know it will be amazing, Deb. I can’t thank you enough for just sharing your wisdom and your heart with us today. Um, and those, those three words, why not me?

[00:39:09] Deb Crowe: [00:39:09] Pleasure. Thanks for having me and all the best with your podcast. I’m so happy for you.

[00:39:15] Zach White: [00:39:15] Thanks.